Calvinist Verse of the Day
Article Series - My problem with TULIP
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And He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us…
The above seems like a mix of determinism and free will, does it not? I am not sure if many of you know this, but Travis and I work together and have had several long conversations about Calvinism and Arminianism. Travis leans heavily towards the Calvinist view and the complete authority of the ruler of the universe and I simply cannot fathom love without choice and thus lean towards Arminianism.
I must admit that the main thrust of my leanings stems from my philosophical views and heavily influences my interpretation of the Bible. Yet, I remain committed to having an open mind on this issue and to seek the truth independent of how I may want it to be.
With that confession out of the way, I must say that many passages give me trouble. Romans 9 and Pharoah of Genesis are a few examples. I have yet to incorporate all my beliefs on the subject into a single workable theory.
The above verses, along with others, such as John 3:16, seem to frame the argument a bit differently than the pro-Calvinist verses do. I want to take a quick look at several phrases in the two above verses and see which side of the fence that they fall on.
having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place
Here Luke makes no bones about God placement of humans on the earth. He planned for me to be born in Missouri in the early 1980’s. This seems to line up very well with the Deterministic philosophy found in Calvinism (and most of Christian Theology for that matter). The catch here is the next phrase:
that they should seek God
Luke lets us humans in on a divine motive: God puts us in our locations and times so that we may seek God. This is the real hard part for any Calvinist to swallow in light of the maintaining of the five points of Calvinism.
Calvinism says that humans are so corrupted by original sin, that they cannot even begin to seek God. While I would agree that Man cannot reach God by his efforts alone, I have a hard time that none seek Him without his election, with all the religions we have had running around throughout the years.
Does God elect all of the saved independent of consent from the saved; or do the people that are saved choose to join in with the universal offering of salvation provided for by God? The next phrase seems to clue us in on what the answer might be:
in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him.
This too seems to indicate that God places each person in their own little nick on history’s totem pole in the hope that the causes and conditions might be just right that the person would choose to look for and find God. The last phrase re-enforces this idea :
Yet he is actually not far from each one of us
It is very difficult to substitute “each one of us” with “people who God chooses anyway to find Him” as one must if one takes a Calvinist approach. It would seem that God has made Himself available to all and hopes that we choose to look for Him.
With this said, what are we left with in these two verses? My interpretation is that God is involved with mankind and influences their lives in order to point us in the general direction, yet respects our autonomy and choice so much that he remains hidden and hopes that we choose to look for God.
Thoughts?
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Comments
I would like to ask a question to any and all who can answer. When I think of calvinism, i don’t like it cause I can’t understand it practically. Here is my question: What is the point of praying? If everything has already been set. What is the point of evangelism? If everything is already decided. In fact, what is the point of life? I am begining to see a relatationship between the strong 5-point calviniist and a deist.
From what I understand, and I may be incorrect, is that the Calvinist believs that God uses us to accomplish His goals. We are his tools. When we pray or evangelize, we are the blade shearing the grass.
I feel that to best answer why it is we pray, evangelize, or do anything for that matter, we must consider what is the motivation and purpose in which we do any action.
Now, it would be safe to say that the majority report of Christians would say we do certains things in order that they yeild a certain results. When asked, “Why do you got to church?,” a believer might respond, “To fellowship.” Another example, “Why do you evangelize?” answered with, “In order to save sinners.”
Yet, is this a proper way to examine our actions? If we view evangelizing as a contribution we have made to the saving action of another’s soul, then God is relying upon us in order to preach His Word and the attoning work of His Son. Under the Reformed theology view (a.k.a. Calvinism), the work of salvation is done solely and monergistically by the Holy Father, and if no one was to ever evangelize, God would still be more than capable to save sinners by his divine grace.
Yet the question still remains: why do we evangelize? We evangelize for one reason and that is to bring glory to God. We have a divine mandate to give a testimony to the hope we have, and regardless if others accept or reject the words of that testimony, we have glorified God with our obidience. And this same mind-set goes for prayer.
We do not pray so that we may change the soverign, decrective, and hidden will of the Lord. We pray in order to obey His commands and to santify our souls. For in true, sincere prayer, we pray for what is in His will, and regardless of what that is, we shall praise His name for it. It is as Soren Kierkegaard said, “Prayer does not change God, but it changes him who prays.”
This is at the very essence of Soli Deo Golria (to God alone be the glory).
Then, everything is for naught. God is a great unmovable fixed stream of action that prevades history. We throw ourselves against it at the hope of sharpening ourselves. There is no one to get to know, only attitudes of our to change. Also, we are a similar stream, barely noticeable compared to God’s. There is no point to anything, we are only stage actors whose sole purpose is to make the larger stream look better.
Humans as streamers do not seem nearly worthy of Jesus’s death.
[...] These next three objections come from two encounters at Theology for the Masses. The first encounter I was not actually apart of. My cousin-in-law, Casey, wrote this as a primary objection to Calvinism, I would like to ask a question to any and all who can answer. When I think of calvinism, i don’t like it cause I can’t understand it practically. Here is my question: What is the point of praying? If everything has already been set. What is the point of evangelism? If everything is already decided. In fact, what is the point of life? I am begining to see a relatationship between the strong 5-point calviniist and a deist. –Comment: March 10, 2006; Post: Calvinist Verse of the Day [...]
[...] These next three objections come from two encounters at Theology for the Masses. The first encounter I was not actually apart of. My cousin-in-law, Casey, wrote this as a primary objection to Calvinism, I would like to ask a question to any and all who can answer. When I think of calvinism, i don’t like it cause I can’t understand it practically. Here is my question: What is the point of praying? If everything has already been set. What is the point of evangelism? If everything is already decided. In fact, what is the point of life? I am begining to see a relatationship between the strong 5-point calviniist and a deist. –Comment: March 10, 2006; Post: Calvinist Verse of the Day [...]
I evangelize in order to participate in the redemptive work of God in history. My part is necessary. Can God save without me? YES, YES, YES!!! But he has chosen to include me in his redemptive mission. He glorifies Himself by including finite, sinful human beings in His work. He is less glorified, IMO, by meticulously determining all my actions. God is revealed as powerful and omniscient by the very fact that he takes free creatures and employs them in His redemptive plan.
The Reformed position is too afraid to speak of human action in redemptive history (besides their contribution of sinfulness). But what I see is God working in us as we work out our own salvation. It is God’s desire and pleasure that we participate in our own redemption - and not be involved by sheer determinism.
But, hey, I guess this is the major disagreement in this debate.
I second you, Tom. Up close I have a hard time arguing against calvinism - but once I step outside the nice logical box they have constructed, I can’t imagine even thinking that way about God, humanity, and everything between.
Yeah, I totally understand what you’re saying. I guess its the ‘high’ rhetoric of Calvinism that is so hard to get around. I mean, seriously, who wants to say the ‘glory of God’ isn’t what it’s all about? No one, for is ’sounds’ un-pious.
This, though, is what we have to get around. Just because something sounds pious and high doesn’t mean it’s the end of the discussion.
I often like to compare Calvinist discussion about everything being ‘for the glory of God’ with the Religious Right saying they are ‘Focused on the Family.’ Well…with that kind of rhetoric, it’s hard to argue with you…b/c after all, who doesn’t care about their family?
So, do I care about the glory of God? Yeah, of course. Does God care about his glory? Yeah, of course. The only question is, what does it look like when God is glorified? And that is really where the difference lies. I don’t think God is glorified by damning people to Hell that he could have saved
…WITHOUT VIOLATING THEIR FREE WILL!!! I don’t see how that’s glorious.
All that to say, I completely understand about the logical box and the high flutin rhetoric that accompanies it. It is hard to get out of it. But once you do, it becomes morally problematic.
PS…sorry, don’t know why, but all of the sudden it posted my comment before I was even done typing…..hmmm.
I evangelize because of joy. Jesus Christ is my joy and treasure. Like with everything else that brings me joy, I want to share that joy with others. So I will tell those who call themselves believers and those who aren’t believers (however, I do not do this as much as I should to my shame). I also share the good news about Jesus and his propitiating work on the cross because it brings joy to my Lord. I preach the gospel because he has chosen me to go and share in that joy by heralding that good news. I think/believe that this is when people see the beauty of Jesus the most is when his people live like “in [his/Jesus'] presence is the fullness of joy; at [his/Jesus'] right hand are pleasures forevermore” (Psalm 16:11 ESV). That’s why I evangelize, for my joy which shows most fully Jesus as the all-satisfying delight and pleasure in the universe. “I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory” (2 Timothy 2:10 ESV) because my eternal joy is found in that endurance and the joy of the elect is at stake as well. Because God has ordained the ends (eternal happiness in him through faith in Jesus Christ) as well as the means (the folly of preaching a crucified Lord to a world that hates that very Lord and God), I must go out as Jesus’ ambassador and “endure everything for the sake of the elect,” issuing God’s command* to repent and believe upon his Son Jesus Messiah. I go out and preach “Delight yourself in the LORD”** through and in the Lord Jesus Christ because I delight in him and want to share it and let others share in that joy so that we can delight in it together, showing just has magnificent God really is in Christ alone.
*In Acts 17:30 Paul says that God “commands” (παραγγέλλει) all men to repent; in Mark 1:15 Jesus uses the imperative verbs μετανοεῖτε (repent) and πιστεύετε (believe).
**Note the imperative verb in Psalm 37:4, Hebrew: wehithe’annag, LXX: κατατρύφησον
Good word, Hank. I preach b/c of joy, too. I love the way your’ve phrase a lot of what you said. It is truly a joy to participate in God’s redemptive plan for all of creation.
[...] is the comment I was responding to and here is the link to my own comment. Related posts:Another look into euaggelionLuke 10:21-22 and [...]
I just checked your stuff out. This is casey, rachel’s husband. I would love to join in the debate, or any others with your theology for the masses. I do not know if i am able to do everything correctly.