complete sidenote.




Henry it looks like my post is moving up on your list of most commented on. I will be number one soon!

Oh and as I said in the other post, it needs to be noted (espescially in reference to the who care as long as you are worshiping God mindset in our day) that many many times Israel had NOT stopped worshiping the LORD, rather they began to worship Him the way the Pagans worshiped their gods. (On the high places and with their altars) So if in a culture lets say that the people prior to Christianity would climb a specific mountain and bow down to the sun upon the summit once a month, I think biblically this practice would be equally wrong if when they are Christianized they continue to do so but in Christ's name.

Henry said:

"Are they earnestly worshiping God? If they are, what is the problem? "





This is generally the response people give on the issue for wor what is proper for worship. But is that biblical? Does the bible lay out a standard of worship that simply says "as long as you are worshiping God it really doesn't matter how."? Quite the contrary.





Now while the bible does not say that we shouldn't introduce fog machines and laser lights for a "worship" service, I would hope people would be taken back by such things. Why? Because it is clear mimickery of the world, imitating how the world does music. Imitating how the world behaves in a worship service is to worship not as strangers and pilgrims but as worldlings. For biblical precedent I point to the bringing up of the ark by David in 1 Chronincals which reads:





"And they carried the ark of God on a new cart, from the house of Abinadab, and Uzzah and Ahio were driving the cart. And David and all Israel were rejoicing before God with all their might, with song and lyres and harps and tambourines and cymbals and trumpets. And when they came to the threshing floor of Chidon, Uzzah put out his hand to take hold of the ark, for the oxen stumbled. And the anger of the LORD was kindled against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he put out his hand to the ark, and he died there before God." (1 Chr 13:8-10)





Now what happened here, we see that David and his men were worshipping with "all their might" so this was a hearty worship. And there are numerous instruments being played. The ark is really central to this whole procession, and if you will indulge me I guess you could consider Uzzah the worship leader (bc the ark is central). Yet God was angry about this whole scene, and Uzzah was struck as the ark slipped...why?





Well they were transporting the ark the same way their pagan neighbors the Philistines did, on a cart. They were not worshipping God as the unique people of God the way He had chosen but rather they worshiped while copying their ungodly neighbors method.





Now I would apply this to mean that we should not imitate the world in how we worship, that's really what got them in trouble here. So in our modern day I think to introduce a Garth Brooks style worship service is to mimick the world. Like wise with techno, rap, and rock music. (Side note: I remember I was at a Christian festival and there was a christian rapper who was selling himself as the christian Eminem)





I think in the bible we have a clear precedence through Israel that the worship of the people of God is to be distinctively unique and unlike our worldly counterparts. So irregardless of culture, when Christianity sets in the people should worship differently from their former pagan methods. (In Israel this meant tearing down pagan altars and not sacrificing to the LORD on them) In our day I think it means not using the same music with the words "baby" changed to "You" or "Jesus".





This is my take on the issue of what music is proper for worship, more examples could be given biblically but I think anyone who is familiar with the OT knows that one of the main problems israel ran into was mimicking their pagan neighbors. It's noteworth that many times they had never rejected the LORD outright but began to mix their worship with pagan practices.





In our day we do the same I think in the name of being "culturally relevant" How are we going to get skateboarders in church?...rock music. So my main beef with CCM is that it unambiguously strives to imitate the music people already like outside of the church, it imitates the way the world soes music world.





Again I am not saying no guitars or no music written in the last 50 years, but what I am saying is we need to seriously think about how we do worship. We need to ask "Is our worship spotted by the world?"

(side note from unity towards worship)

It is true with what you said about worship being made "relevant" can back fire on us.





1) I do not think that the problem with Israel worshipping God in other temples was really about being in this world but not of it.On the contary, the issue is still worship...but as it relates to idolatry. Our one true God is in fact the only God. To worship him at a place where others worshipped false gods brings Our God down to the level of those false gods. He is not made of stone or wood but he himslef gives all men breathe and life. The issue is not about worshipping God with only tamprines but with our hearts. Why did David make himself undignified and take off his robes? It is interesting that you said, "What instruments are proper I don't know." I understand your point with your whole statement. But why is it that we outlaw some instruments and not others? Just because they are newer and are more relevent to us today? In college I heard some rap, and loud music in chapel. I do not think that we worship God only on Sundays or Sabbaths--but everyday we are supposed too. I can find joy and I can get to the heart of God through other means then just the organ. which leads to my next point.





2)"we meet God on our terms the way we want with music we like." Obviously...many (and I use this term losely) Fake christians go around and hop from church to church to church because they don't like this or that. they try to find the perfect church and once they are challenged they simply blame the preacher and find another church. We treat God and church like we are at a mall. We do not like this store so we go to the next store. The true truth has lost meaning, and that is sad. But the truth is that we do meet God on our terms! My understanding of God is only by my choosing to study HIM (not her) and how I relate to my earthy father. In some ways, treating God like a mall is totally wrong, but we still experience God the way we want too. Is it wrong to expereience God's power by watching a sunset? Is it wrong to experience God's love by looking at a new born baby? Is it wrong to expereince God's grace by examining on you did not die in the accident? Is it wrong to expereince God's love through rap music? Have you ever been so emotionally rapped up with God that it consumes you? Is that wrong just because 3000 years ago there was no guitars?





Puritanbob i enjoy your thoughts greatly. I like when some pushes my thinking on a particular subject.





(sorry about all my mispelled words if any--i typed this fast cause i am needed to work on a sermon)

There is so, so, much to talk about here that you both have addressed. I am enjoying this conversation. I need to work something up to respond to both of you.

P.S. - Under my idea, there would be no Catholic Chuch.

Now as for worship (I seem to be talking a lot about this lately) I can not view it as do what is right in your own eyes scripture simply does not allow us. What instruments are proper I don't know but this I know when we worship God in a way that is flat out imitation to the world (ie heavy metal laser lights show) we are outside of the biblical framework for worship. Israel got in trouble time and time again for worshiping the LORD on the pagan high places...they weren't worshiping false gods but the LORD...the problem was that it was the same way the pagans worshiped their false gods and this was detestable to the LORD. So I think today when in a worship service (striving to be "relevant") we see worldly imitation in music there is a problem.

Are they earnestly worshiping God? If they are, what is the problem?

Casey-

Firstly I just want to say I really do respect you guys here at "Mass Theology" and I do consider you brothers in the Lord, even though I may disagree we (in my mind are united in Christ). I think you actually described the relationship between truth and unity I am trying to explain. I have said truth unites (or to sound like Schaeffer true truth unites). You said faith without works is dead, I think it is similar as you are saying. The two really are inseperable. So what I am objecting to is a plan for unity that will necessarily come at the expense of truth.





Now I say necessarily because for (true) evangelical protestants to lock hands say with Catholics will out of necessity come at the expense of truth. For Rome has a different gospel than protestantism. This is what I am objecting to. So when you say: "We did not say that we will abandon the truth of the salvivic Gospel message." I don't think such a feat is at all possible. No one ever sets out saying "We plan to comprimise our convictions" That just sort of happens as an effect of things.





This is what happened to the Liberalism of the 20's, if you were to tell them then that their social gospel movement would lead to homosexual clergy in about 50 years they would probably have laughed, and said no we don't plan to do that. (somewhat of a side note: I think the same will ring true of this present "Emergent church movement" which smacks of old liberalism and neo-orthodoxy)





But this is my concern originally for what Henry proposed (no more baptist churches across form Catholic but one church) this will either mean: a) the Catholic church suddenly becomes evangelical in its soteriology or b)protestants comprimise their view of justification by faith alone in Christ alone or c) both just become complacent theologically and are just social institutions.





Now as for worship (I seem to be talking a lot about this lately) I can not view it as do what is right in your own eyes scripture simply does not allow us. What instruments are proper I don't know but this I know when we worship God in a way that is flat out imitation to the world (ie heavy metal laser lights show) we are outside of the biblical framework for worship. Israel got in trouble time and time again for worshiping the LORD on the pagan high places...they weren't worshiping false gods but the LORD...the problem was that it was the same way the pagans worshiped their false gods and this was detestable to the LORD. So I think today when in a worship service (striving to be "relevant") we see worldly imitation in music there is a problem.


And I do think that this matters if we are going to be God centered worshippers and not man centered. If we want God to be the focus we will worship in a way that is un-worldly and unique as pilgrims, but if we seek to make people feel comfortable we will use the same music that they would enjoy outside of church.





It's not about hymns vs contemporary its about imitating the world and frankly punk, heavey metal, techno, and Garth brooks style worship is flat out imitation. It grieves me that we think this is ok, we meet God on OUR terms the way WE want with music WE like. (not that were not supposed to enjoy worship) All in the name of being relevant. Os Guinness said "Never has the church striven so hard to be culturally relevant and never has the church been so irrelevant to the culture."

Puritanbob help me if I say this wrong.

But in the calvinistic mind, you are correct about truth being more important than unity. Even so a calvinsist would claim the two might be equal (or the same: how can we have one without the other). But the truth is what you typed, "Frankly, I would leave my church if that happened."


I believe that we have a responsilbity to put our faith into action (faith without deeds is dead). I am called to love my brother. There has to be a balance between holding the truth and loving our brothers. We did not say that we will abandon the truth of the salvivic Gospel message.


I would be strangely uncomfortable in a setting where the worship is hand-banging music (in fact, I went to such a place a couple of weeks ago). But in my desire to worship HIM (and I say HIM and not HER) who is Worthy of praise, I found myself to not care about the style of worship. I do not have a great hand-banging "dance" but I still found myself longing to worship the God who sent his son to die for these people.





Is there a time when hymnals, piano, organs, drums do not matter?





1) ultimately in heaven these things won't matter


2) do they have to matter now (some might say yes-others no)





But if we never try to unite we can never know the strength or power that we have standing together.





One prayer that Jesus prayed was never answered completely by God. Jesus prayed that we would be one as he is one with the Father. It seems like Jesus wanted unity. We can answer Christ's prayer by uniting with each other. Strangly, we have a part in his prayer today! Not to abandon his call to truth but to fulfill it.





(My focus was not really on a Calvinism debate, so I am not trying to stray from the topic of unity. I was just wondering if your systematic approach to theology leads you to hold this view point? No need to respond to this question, just think about it. Obviously, our assumptions about certain things determine our believes about other things)

To put things in context although it seems silly to our anything goes in worship 21st century ears to hear of a church splitting over a piano, this introduction of pianos was at that time similar to in our modern day a hymn singing church suddenly installing a rock band with drums and fog machines. (Frankly I would leave my church it that happened) That really is the modern equivelant (piano is different from the organ which was in churches for centuries prior to the piano issues).




Again I really see a failure to define what really are the truths which when compromised must result in a going of seperate ways. I am all for unity and churches comming together but why? Is it to celebrate the gospel and proclaim it together? Well what is the gospel? Is it in penances and masses? I think not. I used to talk like you guys are but then I realized unity can not come at the expense of truth...rather truth unites.





I also don't think that to be a Christian means love and unity as you put it, a look a church history will quickly stifle that nonesense. There is always the outward church and the true church, often the outward was persecuting the true...(monastic or protestant movements were persecuted by popes). I think a better definition of what it means to be a christian is to trust Christ's death (alone) as ones hope for eternal life.





But I don't want to be tottaly negative to you guys, I do also want to see a stronger united body, but what good is a united church if it looses its message in persuing an outward unity?





(side note: the calvinist/arminian meter...no suprise there lol)