Thoughts on the Rapture
I have spent this past weekend on vacation. It was wonderful. As I shared in a comment, I was wonderfully upset at the idea of getting plagiarized. I saw Chicago and it was wonderful. During the trip, I had some time with my Bible to read. I had my computer with me so I started writing. So far, I have almost 10 full, single-spaced, pages of thoughts centering on Revelation 20:1-6 (another post) and its application to today. But in the course of reading and studying that, I began to turn my thoughts on what has really bothered me this summer. I love to listen to Christian talk radio on the Bott Radio Network. It has some of my favorite preachers (ie John Piper, Chuck Swindoll, RC Sproul, Alitar Begg). But for some reason, it seemed like every time I turned on the radio, some preacher, except the aforementioned, were preaching on Revelation. They were firm dispensationalists. It was guys like Dr. Adrian Rogers, Dr. David Jeremiah, Dr. Woodrow Kroll, and Dr. Michael Yuseff. I have much respect for these guys and love to listen to them. Dr. Rogers (I pick on him again because he is in my particular denomination of Southern Baptist) said Revelation 4:1 is the rapture. That is ludicrous. That text does not teach anything about rapture. Revelation 4:2 seems to indicate a trance or a state in which John was able to receive the visions. That is not a rapture.
So I ask the question, does the Bible really teach this rapture that all of these preachers, good respected men with the title “doctor” in front of their names, are saying it does? Let us examine the main passage and see if that is true.
First Thessalonians 4:16-17 from the ESV says,
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
Now the idea of the rapture comes out of v. 17 and “caught up” or harpazo in the Greek. The Latin translation of that word is where we get rapture. So what I am disputing is not necessarily the existance of the rapture or the event’s biblicality. What I dispute is the nature of it, or is it pre- or mid- or post-tribulational?
I opt for the post-tribulational, though I do not hold to a seven year tribulation, view of hte rapture in this text for two reasons: v. 16 indicates a different scene than what pre-tribulationalism paints; in v. 17 there is a Greek word apantesis that does not seem to indicate pre- or mid-tribulational interpretations.
1.) Look at v. 16, “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.” What about that seems quiet? The cry of command-which the Greek word there refers to a military command, the voice of an archangel, the trumpet of God; which of those is a quiet event? Paul says that when Jesus comes back, he is going to give a shout like a military commander, like the angel heralding news, like the sound of a trumpet blasting. What is the result of this noise, “the dead in Christ will rise first.” It will be so loud that the dead will literally come to life. The saying, “You’ll wake the dead” will literally happen here. This idea is what is spoken of in John 5:28-29, “Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.”
2.) Based on the Greek, we know that there is some kind of rapture that will occur. I have demonstrated that it will not be some secret rapture. So then what is it? The word Greek word apantesis or “to meet” gives the answer. This Greeks used this word to describe the coming of a king to a city, let us say the capital city after a long time away. When he comes to the city, he declares to the gatekeeper that he is the king. The watchmen at the gate announce to the city heralds that the king has come. The heralds bring the good news to the city and a welcoming party is formed. The party goes to the gates “to meet” the king. They welcome him into the city as while the party is formed, the king remains outside the city. They then escort him to his destination in the city, in this example his palace. Thus Paul’s idea here is not so much we, both dead Christians and living, go up in the air and return with Christ to heaven and await the end of the Tribulation. Instead, Paul is saying that we shall go up to meet Christ, who is waiting in the air, outside of the city, and welcome him to earth. We go up, we are transformed, we meet Christ, we immediately escort him back down to earth. It is in that sense we will be with Christ forever, we will live with him in the New Jerusalem, the new heavens, and the new earth.
This text really does not lend its way to pre-tribulationalism and to dispensationalism. It actually points the other way. It seems to skip over mid-tribulational rapture and goes to post-tribulational rapture. Thus in conclusion, I think that looking forward to the rapture does not look forward to the real hope. We must look to Christ’s second coming in which all his enemies, last of all death, are made footstools under his feet. We look forward to that coming in which our lowly bodies are made to be like Christ’s. Our real hope in eschatology is found in the eternal state. John 17:3 defines eternity like this, “And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.”
“some of my favorite preachers (ie John Piper, Chuck Swindoll, RC Sproul, Alitar Begg).”
Again, I like the new guy! Never really listened to Swindoll though.
But yeah I don’t know what to think about all this rapture business. I kinda abandoned the whole pre-trib stuff because it would clearly undermine the imanence of Christ’s return No one will know the day or the hour.) Well if the rapture occurs according Hal Lindsay’s plan you can just count down 7 years and Jesus will come too. It also seems kinda bizarre in the sense that Jesus in some way comes takes His own and then leaves for 7 years.
Interesting post though, again I really don’t know what to think about the end times stuff, I just read Revelation as an encouragement that Christ will come and it will be glorious to dwell with Him forever and ever. I tried to figure it out too much and in a way lost the heart of the message in the past.
According to the number code sequence as laid out in his Prophecy Code Book, it seems that the rapture if you want to call it that (I prefer the word resurrection), can’t happen for at least another 27 years. May I suggest you check out the website http://www.prophecycodebook.com which shows the Menorah’s pictogram. In his book Prophecy Code, Jeff Manty decodes the rapture using the number (2520) from the prophecy of the seventy ’sevens.’
He says the secret to understanding the return of Christ is to know that this number 2520 is a number of years as well as days. As proof he connects this number to the years of Israel’s reestablishment or the years 1897, 1948, and 1967 to the years 587, 536, and 517.
Manty uses the prophecy’s commencement as the key to unlocking the rapture. May I suggest you get a copy of his book you’ll love it…
I don’t understand this: If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium? All saints will be in their resurrected bodies so who will populate the millennial kingdom? And what about the sheep and goat judgement? Who will be the sheep?
Sandra,
It seems to me that you are asking these questions from a dispensational, premillennial scheme. If what I say is the point of Paul here in 1 Thessalonians 4, then these questions must be asked. Holes are created in a pre-tribulational, premillennial eschatology. Part of my point with this post was to show such holes in the dispensational scheme. If one merely exegetes the Scriptures, then dispensationalism begins to break down. The exegesis above is what led me to abandon my dispensational ways.
One can still be a premillennialist ahd hold to a literal 1000-year kingdom. It will be populated by the saints who have been raised to life and the saints who have been translated into their resurrection bodies. I really recommend you read George Eldon Ladd’s stuff on eschatology or click here for John Piper, who follows Ladd.
I personally would advocate abandoning the idea of a literal 1000-year kingdom. The millennial passage (Revelation 20:1-6) does not necessarily require a literal 1000-year kingdom. Too much of the passage is symbolic of the church age. For example, the martyrs of Revelation 6:9-10 are virtually identical to those who reign with Christ in Revelation 20:4. Note also that in Revelation 1:4-6 and Revelation 5:9-10 that John says we are a kingdom now. The Kingdom of Christ is now because Christ reigns through us. Consider one last text 1 Corinthians 15:20-28. Paul says that Christ must reign until he has defeated every enemy. Then he hands his kingdom over to the Father. Yet for Paul, the kingdom of Christ is now (cf. Colossians 1:13-14). We live in the kingdom right now. Christ’s kingdom is not some distant kingdom that only lasts for 1000 years.
As for the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, pay very close attention to Matthew 25:46 (ESV) which reads, “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” This is the judgment for the sheep and goats to be sent into their eternal destinies. It is the final judgment that Christ will come to hand out on the last day, at the end of the church age. It is what was spoken of in Daniel 12:2 and John 5:28-29. The rapture I speak of above and the final judgment, they are all one single event that ushers in the eternal state.
dreams are usually not rational. it is a mistake, in most cases, to attempt to decipher them.
we are in the great tribul now. when JESUS comes (2nd) many will be against HIS truth. they are dead in CHRIST and they will be raptured. i am alive in CHRIST and i will respond gracefully to his truth. the man of perdition is a abortionist.
Luther Marv,
I don’t quite get what you are talking about there at the end of your comment. Who is this man of perdition that is an abortionist?
Luther Marv,
Are you saying that those who have not come to Christ by faith and have opposed the gospel and the truth are going to be raptured? If so, on what basis. I find that to be an interesting theory on the rapture coming from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. I have heard that the taking away in Matthew 24:36-44 is a taking away in judgment, like those taken away in by the flood in Noah’s day. Could that be what you are referring to here?
And I too am confused about the antichrist/man of perdition being an abortionist. I hope that you can return here and clarify what you meant by your comment and expound upon it. I think we all need another chance to pick your brain to better interact with your statement.
I LOST MY EXPLANATION. WRITE TO ME AT 100 KELLY DR LAURINBURG, N.C. AND I WILL RESPOND. THIS IS NOT A SIMPLE ANSWER. THERE ARE MANY SONS OF PERDITION = ABORTIONISTS. EQUALS ANTI-CHRISTS ALSO.
THIS ALL STARTED ON APRIL 3, 1984 WHEN I IDENTIFIED THE BELOVED DISCIPLE AND IT WONT JOHN, LAZARUS, OR THOMAS. NOW I GET INSIGHTS INTO SCRIPTURE THAT ARE CONSIDERED STRANGE BY MANY PASTORS BUT NOT ALL. I SPOKE TO GOD ABOUT IT AND GOD SAID “RATTLE THEIR CAGES”.
ALL abortionists are sons of perdition. rev. 19:12 the man on the white horse is a abortionist. but hebrews says that the word of GOD is sharper than any two edged sword. he has a name that nobody knows but himself. he is called something but he don’t be. read rev. 14:3-6 this describes precisely aborted babies.
hebrews 4:12 sharper than any two-edged sword
i am saying that after JESUS comes and they are impeding HIS progress and they are against HIM, they will likely be raptured. they must be “dead in CHRIST. possibilities would be planned parenthood. we are alive in CHRIST and we would be totally for JESUS in what HE is doing. i could never characterize my self as “dead in CHRIST” even after i leave my earthly body. i hope my thoughts on this are clear. e.g. the crucifying jews were dead in CHRIST as they did what they did.
Luther Marv,
are you saying the damned will be raptured?
On what basis do you have for reading Revelation as positing abortionists and aborted fetuses? I’m curious.
ABOUT 1986 i had a vision. it lasted about 5 min. i saw a purgatory type scene. there was a glass wall between purgatory and heaven. you learn to be a believer. our GOD is giveing people a 2nd chance. up to that time i did not believe in purgatory and didn’t give it any thought.
aborted people are described at rev. 14:3-6 . these are complicated issues and my essays are explanatory and totally free.
i id’ed the man in rev. as a abortionist 19:12. from the descriptions given. you take the word perdition, rearrange the letters, turn the d upside down, form an A from parts of left over letters, and you get the word ABORTION.
THE 144000 and the 666 are about aborted babies. you are given clues, 12000 and 3 score. 1 is GOD, our FATHER, 2 ARE BABIES. 3 SCORE, 3×20, 3 is JESUS. WHEN USED AS A 12 OR 6 WE ARE TALKING ABOUT ABORTIONS. 2 BY ITSELF IS ABOUT BABIES. NOT ABORTED BABIES. ANOTHER thought. i can meet you in n.c. to talk about these things. we take up for peter and judas. and the lady at the well and mary magdalene. i believe all interpretations of scripture should “fitthe picture”.
Luther Marv,
I find this interesting. But I’m not seeing exegesis of the text of Revelation. I see moving letters around and math formulas but I see nothing based upon the language of the text itself as presented (in either Greek or English) but rather manipulations and changing of words from an unspecified English translation. I see nothing that would show that John’s audience from the first century would understand this book to be about the killing of infants (or embryos if you are pro-choice/abortion rights).
I agree with you about the hermeneutic, “all interpretations should ‘fit the picture.’” But I feel that you are manipulating the picture to fit a 21st century issue that was not such an issue for a 1st century audience–although I know that abortion or a form of it was rampant during the time. Rather than fitting the picture as Paul or Peter or John or any other biblical author, you are fitting the picture with your own images.
I’m not certain what purgatory has to do with Revelation, the rapture, or eschatology as the topic of this post has established. I find the dream or vision interesting and am curious about how you line your dream up with the revelation that has been given by Yahweh to us through the biblical writers
I am also curious in what you mean by taking up for “peter and judas.” For what should they be taken up for? Peter denied Jesus, as predicted by the Lord himself, inspite of his insistence of faithfulness. Judas betrayed the Lord as Yahweh had revealed centuries earlier. Both men sinned but both men had different lives or paths to follow. Peter’s was to restoration and Judas’ wasn’t. Peter was chosen by the Lord to help establish Christianity in its most infant stage in the Jewish context. Judas was to betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver. There is nothing to take up for in my mind. I would like to hear your thoughts.
I am not really able to meet in N.C. because I live several states west of there. I would like to continue to have this dialogue here at Theology for the Masses if you would like.
it all started when GOD spoke to me febr 23, 1984 at about 3am. “judas was not the real betrayer. he was a scapegoat. he only got a taste of what the others
got.” that was a startling word of truth so i started studying scripture. in john’s gospel judas was not pointing out JESUS. when theycame looking for JESUS, JESUS said “it is I” at the last supper in john JESUS told judas “what you do, do quickly”. and judas obeyed. w
i apologize. i do get excited. at the trial there were many witnesses against JESUS but no two would agree. so the real betrayer went to the gate and brought in peter so peter could be the 2nd witness. no way would peter send his LORD to be murdered.
JESUS became the 2nd witness. i interpret numbers, colors, and letters. some hate my insights, most don’t like them, and a few encourage me. i also take up for the lady at the well in john 4. green is life. 9 the HOLY SPIRIT. A is the atonement. etc.
As we are unlikely to find agreement or have meaningful discussion due to our substantially different methods of biblical interpretation, let me shift the question a bit. How is it that you come to assign numbers to different markers? That is something I have never understood when it comes to biblical numerology.
Additionally, I am having trouble following your lines of reasoning in this comment. It would seem that if there were really a code of sorts, there would not be any left overs from which to assemble the rest of the interpretation.
isn’t it interesting that paul listed 9 fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT? also 9 gifts. in john’s gospel, JESUS says, “the FATHER and I are one. we are to put GOD, the FATHER, 1ST. GOD is 1. truth is3. 3×1=3 JESUS IS THE TRUTH. JESUS IS 3. 3X3=9 THIS IS SYMBOLIC. I DON’T LIKE THE WORD NUMEROLOGY. WHEN YOU ARE A BABY YOU ARE 2. WHEN YOU ACCEPT JESUS YOU ARE 5. WHEN YOU KICK THE BUCKET AND GO HOME 5PLUS3=8. 8 IS ETERNAL LIFE. SO IN JOHN 21, they caught 153 fish. believers are in the net with the FATHER AND JESUS. AND the net didn’t break. security of the believer. 3 is used a lot in john. GOD his no.’s in a special way. paul loved everybody. so he had 276 people aboard in his shipwreck story. 153 plus 123 = 276. some people hate my interpretation of no.’s in scripture and some like it. isn’t it interesting that john never uses the word 7 or 70 or 17 in john. want to know why?
and you can bet your buttons that the real betrayer got more than 30 pcs of silver.
another essay i am beginning to write ISAbout sacred numbers. 1 is GOD, OUR FATHER 3 IS THE TRUTH & JESUS 9 IS THE HOLY SPIRIT. THREE AND THIRD ARE USED MOST OFTEN IN JOHN. PAUL LISTED 9 FRUITS AN 9 GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. WE ARE TO PUT GOD OUR FATHER 1ST. 6 IS A HOLY NUMBER. GOD GAVE US A CLUE WHEN 666 WAS USED IN REVELATION. SIX HUNDRED, THREE SCORE AND SIX. SO 3 SCORE IS 3 TIMES 20. 3X2 OR 2X3. 2 IS BABIES BUT WHEN USED WITH 3 IT IS ABOUT ABORTED BABIES. ALL ABORTED BABIES HAVE BEEN RESSURECTED BY JESUS. 144,000 IN REVELATION. A CLUE IS PRESENT. 12 TIMES 12000 = 144000. THIS TIME WE HAVE GOD OUR FATHER PRESENT. 1X2 OR 2X1. 12 IS A SACRED NO. I APOLOGIZE FOR DEEP TRUTHS. 6, 23, 32 ARE SACRED NO.’S.
DON’T BE MAD. BE GLAD. THIS IS THE REASON WHY JESUS HAD TO GO TO THE CROSS SO WE COULD BE SAVED. WE ARE JUSTIFIED BY THE CROSS.
um… not to stir the pot, but Jesus does 7 signs in John’s gospel. in fact, the gospel makes a big deal out of using the number 7, and calling attention to the fact that there are 7 signs.
and i think your numerology needs work (or number magic, or whatever you want to call it).
God is always 1. the Church/Israel is always 2. 3 is also God/Trinity. 4 is the number of Earth (4-corners). 6 is the number of humanity. 7 is the number of perfection/completion. 8 is the number of Jesus and new creation. 10 is wholeness/totality. 12 is Israel/the Church.
There you go… you can update your system with the right numbers now ;)
numerology is satanic. when i 1st started my number theory, 2 different people gave me a book on numerology. they were all terrible and i forget exactly. but no. 3 might mean you would die next week. i thew them away. john is noted for the 7 things of GOD but john never uses the no. 7 in the words. john says that JESUS is risen on the 3rd day. with the system that i use i can interpret no.’s in scripture. like in john 21 they caught 153 fish. its a theory and i only trust JESUS for salvation. e.g. i don’t interpret the 6 vessels of water in john 2. they said 6 because there were 6. and that’s it… there were 7 i am sayings in john but you had to count them. there are 9 fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT BUT YOU HAVE TO COUNT. NOBODY likes my theory on no.’s in scripture. but i continue. one day we will know.
Luther Marv,
If “numerology is satanic” then how can you feel confident using a “satanic” method to interpret the Scriptures and that you are getting what the Holy Spirit intends? It seems odd to use a method characterized by the adversary to interpret the words of our God.
i use scripture clues. never numerology. my interpretations glorify GOD.
Could you then explain the difference between what you are doing and numerology that you say is satanic? I’m not seeing the difference between what you are doing and the numerology that JR gave above. And how is yours more God-glorifying than that which was mentioned by JR above?
numerology is depressing. studying and interpreting scripture is life. its full of light. i love it. but if anybody wants to live in darkness, buy and study some books about numerology. john 21: they caught 153 fish. we are the fish in the net. this episode is a security of the believer statement. 1 is GOD THE FATHER 5 ARE believers. 3 is JESUS
AND THE NET DIDN’T BREAK.
But Dude, you are describing a revealed numerology! You say “numerology is depressing. studying and interpreting scripture is life. its full of light,” but you are using a divinely revealed numerical equation system to interpret scripture. Your denial of the very system you use is baffling to me.
OBVIOUSLY YOU NEED TO READ 2 PAGES OF A BOOK TITLED NUMEROLOGY.
Luther Marv,
You still haven’t distinguished what you are doing from what is known as “numerology.” Everyone here who is reading what you post are confused as to how what you assign to the numerals 1 or 2 is different from what has already been established as numerology. All you have done is to say that you are not doing what is in a book called Numerology because (it sounds like) you have read a couple of pages it. You are still engaging in what is called numerology, assigning non-numeric meaning to numerals. Traditionally, the numeral 3 has meant Trinity. The numeral 6 has been the number of evil and man. The numeral 7 has always been seen as perfection and completion. The numeral 10 has been seen as completion. The numeral 12 has stood for the people of God, 12 tribes and 12 apostles. I’m not sure how making these numerals to mean something else no longer makes it “numerology.” It just seems to me you are assigning different means to the numerals but engaging in the same hermeneutic. Could you explain more to distinguish what you are doing from numerology?
1 is GOD, THE FATHER because we are to put HIM 1st. in john’s gospel it says “the FATHER and I are one.
3 is the TRUTH. used more than any other no. in john’s gospel. JESUS is risen on the 3rd day. HE went to the wedding at cana on the third day. 3 also symbolizes our LORD. JESUS is the truth.
paul listed 9 fruits of the HOLY SPIRIT. he also listed 9 gifts of the HOLY SPIRIT. you have to count them. love joy peace patience kindness long-suffering faithful meekness temperance.
add them together and you get 13. 13 symbolizes the HOLY TRINITY. have you noticed that capital B is a 13 writtem close together. for GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only Begotten SON ……………. JESUS was gotten from the B or you could say gotten from the HOLY TRINITY.
I think i got some of the no.’s from divine inspiration. 666 bible gives you a clue. three score. 3×2=6 this is about abortion.
144,000 you have a clue 12000 from 12 tribes. so you 1 and 2. this is the CREATOR PLUS BABIES. when 2 and three are used together, this makes a unique situation. 2 by itself is only natural born babies. so when the 144000 is used in rev. 14 its followed by the aborted babies description. they are virgins. they never told a lie. rev 12:11 “they never loved their life”. aborted babies are the remnant.
7 is the complete no. for the people that GOD loves. 2plus5. 5 are born again christians. when you accept CHRIST 2PLUS3=5. now you are a christian. when it is a believers time to go 5plus3=8. in heaven you be promoted to a 8.
one day we will all know.
Mr. Walters,
you are either 1) hilarious and deeply satirical
or 2) clinically insane.
consider that both of those documents were written in Greek, which doesn’t have a number 13 (or if they did, it was written XIII) and a letter Beta, not ‘B’.
Luther Marv,
You still didn’t show how what you are doing is not numerology which you say is satanic. As far as I can tell, and the other bloggers here, you are still engaged in numerology. And please don’t take offense at this but what you are doing sounds like an old South Park episode where Eric Cartman manipulated 9 1 1 (as in 9/11) to blame Kyle for the attacks on September 11, 2001. I hope that is intentional and you are in category 1 of JR’s previous comment.
we have run into extreme antagonism with these ideas in the past and they are to be expected. a few scholars have encouraged me in my pursuits. suit yourself. all numbers are for GOD’S glory. 11 is symbolic of holy matrimony. i love everybody and hope for their salvation. GOD’S will is that none be lost. all things work together for good …………………………… .
FORGET THE #’S JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO HEAVEN.
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