Comments on: Romans and the Government http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/ Conversations in Theology and its interaction with Culture Sun, 07 Feb 2010 03:50:02 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Dave http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-95 Dave Sat, 12 Aug 2006 15:52:38 +0000 224132769#comment-95 <blockquote>What I think is the more condemning for pro-war Christians is the preceding passage:</blockquote>I agree completely with you. But I wasn't looking for an passage condemning pro-war Christians as much as I was looking at the inconsistency with dealing with this specific passage.<br /> <br /> As for God's will including things like the Holocaust...I am not so sure. But I don't have time to deal with that right now... :)

What I think is the more condemning for pro-war Christians is the preceding passage:

I agree completely with you. But I wasn’t looking for an passage condemning pro-war Christians as much as I was looking at the inconsistency with dealing with this specific passage.

As for God’s will including things like the Holocaust…I am not so sure. But I don’t have time to deal with that right now… :)

]]> By: HT http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-94 HT Sat, 12 Aug 2006 07:47:04 +0000 224132769#comment-94 Hey guys,
We talk about how things like the Jewish Holocaust and that God cannot possibly have been behind that in any way because it is a terrible thing. I want to point out some verses from the Bible in which God does some very terrible things that are similar to these things.

Deuteronomy 28:63, “And as the Lord took delight in doing you good and multiplying you, so the Lord will take delight in bringing ruin upon you and destroying you. And you shall be plucked off the land that you are entering to take possession of it.”

1 Thessalonians 2:14-16, “For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out, and displease God and oppose all mankind 16 by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles that they might be saved—so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. But God’s wrath has come upon them at last!” When God’s wrath came upon the Jews in AD 66-73, Jerusalem was destroyed. Millions of Jews were killed by the civil war and the Roman advance. Yet it was God who was behind this horrible event.

Revelation 17:16-17, “They will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, 17 for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.” Without getting into whether this describes a past or future event, there is one thing that is very certain about these verses: God is the one who is behind the terrible attack upon the prostitute.

I know that these verses deal with judgment issues. I am not trying to make an argument that God was juding the Jews in the 1930s and 40s. I am not saying that about any of those terrible events. My point is this, in as much as that was a sin for Rome to slaughter the Jews like they did, it was God’s will. Deuteronomy even goes as so far to say that God delights in these terrible events. So in light of Scripture, we need to rethink just how active is God, even in the terrible times. Like Job said in Job 2:10, “Shall we receive good from God, and shall we not receive evil?” (In Job 1-2, it was God who began the whole process of Satan attacking Job and his family.

]]> By: Henry Michael Imler http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-93 Henry Michael Imler Sat, 12 Aug 2006 05:09:59 +0000 224132769#comment-93 What I think is the more condemning for pro-war Christians is the preceding passage:<br /> <br /> <blockquote><strong>Marks of the True Christian</strong><br /> <sup>9</sup>Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. <sup>10</sup>Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. <sub>11</sub>Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. <sup>12</sup>Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. <sup>13</sup>Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> <sup>14</sup>Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. <sup>15</sup>Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. <sup>16</sup>Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be conceited. <sup>17</sup>Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. <sup>18</sup>If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. <sup>19</sup>Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." <sup>20</sup>To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head." <sub>21</sub>Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.</blockquote><br /> <br /> What I think is the more condemning for pro-war Christians is the preceding passage:

Marks of the True Christian
9Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. 10Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. 11Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. 12Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. 13Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality.

14Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be conceited. 17Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all. 19Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

]]> By: Henry Michael Imler http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-92 Henry Michael Imler Sat, 12 Aug 2006 04:53:29 +0000 224132769#comment-92 I was introducing it for the sole purpose to show that if you hold tightly to the Romans passage, that is where the logic leads when one thinks about the following:<br /> <br /> <blockquote>How is it possible to support the overthrowing of a government if one holds to the belief that all government authority is established by God?</blockquote><br /> <br /> I don't know how anyone can know the will of God for sure when it comes to governments. But I think the logic holds. If it is a cop-out, it is an honest one.<br /> <br /> What you bring up (<br /> Was it God's will for millions of Jews to be killed in the Holocaust? What about Rwanda? Sudan? Iraq? The Armenian Genocide? ) is why I am not in the Calvinist (or better put, a strict determanistic) camp.<br /> <br /> There is the Will of God, what happens (what we as humans do), and what God does as a response to our actions.<br /> <br /> The "what happens" is our free will that can either go with God's Will or against it.<br /> <br /> 30's Europe, Rwanda, Sudan, ect... are humans going against God's will. I was introducing it for the sole purpose to show that if you hold tightly to the Romans passage, that is where the logic leads when one thinks about the following:

How is it possible to support the overthrowing of a government if one holds to the belief that all government authority is established by God?

I don’t know how anyone can know the will of God for sure when it comes to governments. But I think the logic holds. If it is a cop-out, it is an honest one.

What you bring up (
Was it God’s will for millions of Jews to be killed in the Holocaust? What about Rwanda? Sudan? Iraq? The Armenian Genocide? ) is why I am not in the Calvinist (or better put, a strict determanistic) camp.

There is the Will of God, what happens (what we as humans do), and what God does as a response to our actions.

The “what happens” is our free will that can either go with God’s Will or against it.

30’s Europe, Rwanda, Sudan, ect… are humans going against God’s will.

]]> By: Dave http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-91 Dave Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:47:48 +0000 224132769#comment-91 Henry...don't you think that is somewhat of a cop-out?<br /> <br /> Using your logic we can justify anything that our leaders to by saying "God is in control." <br /> <br /> I am not sure if I should go in this direction, but I will anyway. <br /> <br /> Was it God's will for millions of Jews to be killed in the Holocaust? What about Rwanda? Sudan? Iraq? The Armenian Genocide?<br /> <br /> Saying that everything is God's will opens up a huge can of worms... Henry…don’t you think that is somewhat of a cop-out?

Using your logic we can justify anything that our leaders to by saying “God is in control.”

I am not sure if I should go in this direction, but I will anyway.

Was it God’s will for millions of Jews to be killed in the Holocaust? What about Rwanda? Sudan? Iraq? The Armenian Genocide?

Saying that everything is God’s will opens up a huge can of worms…

]]> By: Henry Michael Imler http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-90 Henry Michael Imler Fri, 11 Aug 2006 18:51:12 +0000 224132769#comment-90 Something to chew on:<br /> <br /> If God is in control (i.e. if the governmnets in place are put there by God and He holds them in power) , and sets the authorities and takes down the authorities, then if a government is successful in taking down another government, it must have been God's will.<br /> <br /> Something to chew on:

If God is in control (i.e. if the governmnets in place are put there by God and He holds them in power) , and sets the authorities and takes down the authorities, then if a government is successful in taking down another government, it must have been God’s will.

]]> By: HT http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-89 HT Fri, 11 Aug 2006 04:58:29 +0000 224132769#comment-89 Dave I like your question about Romans 13. I will admit, I find my self semi-convicted by this question. I do see the wrong in saying obey your government and then turning around and overthrowing another government in the MIddle East or in another place. But with some of those governments, such as the regieme in Afghanistan under the Taliban, declared war on our own country and we fought back, defeated them, and then put a less hostile/more peaceful government in place (whether it remains that way is up to the people in Afghanistan). If wielding the sword means engaging in a war to defend you people, then what happened in Afghanistan is biblical. Due to the controversial nature of Iraq, I don't feel like commenting on it so that the blog will stay with in the scope of theology. I like the point you made in this post. Dave I like your question about Romans 13. I will admit, I find my self semi-convicted by this question. I do see the wrong in saying obey your government and then turning around and overthrowing another government in the MIddle East or in another place. But with some of those governments, such as the regieme in Afghanistan under the Taliban, declared war on our own country and we fought back, defeated them, and then put a less hostile/more peaceful government in place (whether it remains that way is up to the people in Afghanistan). If wielding the sword means engaging in a war to defend you people, then what happened in Afghanistan is biblical. Due to the controversial nature of Iraq, I don’t feel like commenting on it so that the blog will stay with in the scope of theology. I like the point you made in this post.

]]> By: puritanbob http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-88 puritanbob Fri, 11 Aug 2006 03:05:49 +0000 224132769#comment-88 Just what it says. This practically means pay your taxes, and follow the laws made. The exception to following the laws made are when they go against conscience (which is captive by the word of God) forbidding worship of Christ (in the negative) or commanding the immoral (in the positive). Just what it says. This practically means pay your taxes, and follow the laws made. The exception to following the laws made are when they go against conscience (which is captive by the word of God) forbidding worship of Christ (in the negative) or commanding the immoral (in the positive).

]]> By: dave http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-87 dave Fri, 11 Aug 2006 01:19:03 +0000 224132769#comment-87 <blockquote>hope there isn't any bad blood between us, sorry if I was a bit stout on the other thread</blockquote>No bad blood. I blog about politics - I have to be thick skineed. I just don't like assumptions!<blockquote>Frankly, I don't think the bible says much about how we are to deal with politics (other than submit to rulers and pray for them)</blockquote>Okay...but what what does it mean to submit to rulers?

hope there isn’t any bad blood between us, sorry if I was a bit stout on the other thread

No bad blood. I blog about politics – I have to be thick skineed. I just don’t like assumptions!

Frankly, I don’t think the bible says much about how we are to deal with politics (other than submit to rulers and pray for them)

Okay…but what what does it mean to submit to rulers?

]]> By: puritanbob http://www.masstheology.com/2006/08/09/romans_and_the_government/comment-page-1/#comment-86 puritanbob Thu, 10 Aug 2006 07:53:11 +0000 224132769#comment-86 Good questions Dave (hope there isn't any bad blood between us, sorry if I was a bit stout on the other thread). I don't think there are any real easy answers. Frankly, I don't think the bible says much about how we are to deal with politics (other than submit to rulers and pray for them) for the mere fact that this world is not our home, we are pilgrims here. Good questions Dave (hope there isn’t any bad blood between us, sorry if I was a bit stout on the other thread). I don’t think there are any real easy answers. Frankly, I don’t think the bible says much about how we are to deal with politics (other than submit to rulers and pray for them) for the mere fact that this world is not our home, we are pilgrims here.

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