1)What DID the fall do to mankind. The Bible certainly talks as though it indeed has had an effect upon us.

2)If God can not transfer sins/guilt then did Christ bear our sins?

Again, the result of sin was a curse on humankind. We see that curse in the beginning of Genesis.

The LORD God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”

Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”

Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.

When you talk about the transferability of sin, I would like to hear your case for how you think it transfers.

As Adam was created by God, in God’s image & after God’s
likeness, including having God’s Holy Spirit indwelling
him, so that Adam is called a “Living Soul” NOT dead,
(and that further proved when God informs him that on that
day when he eats of the fruit… he will surely die – of
course one cannot die unless one is alive) then this Adam
would have only a purely Spiritual, wisdom-filled, living
soul and NONE of the motivators from which operates our
sin-choosing hearts & minds.

Being Omnipotent, Omnipresent and Omnicient, God knew,
well prior to creating, just what His creation would choose.

There is nothing existent which was not created, and all
created was created through Jesus the Christ.

Now, about OS, what would possibly motivate the choice
of a sinless Adam, (indwelt with God’s Spirit of wisdom,
truth and life,) to choose DEATH?
I have heard some say, “The lust of the eyes, the lust
of the flesh, and the pride of life” but these all sound
like sinful qualities, Adam was not created in the image
of sin, but in the image of God, and I cannot understand
wherein could lie sin within a perfect, purely loving God-Creator,
or
therefore, in His LIVING image.

What would motivate a Porsche to choose to become a Fiat?
Or a world-class marathoner who is happily bringing joy
to his family and village by winning every marathon he
enters, to go running, knowledgeably, through a live
minefield so he loses his legs?

I apologize for the weak analogies but it’s late & I’m
tired but I cannot get past this apparent logical impass.

Where in God’s image & likeness lies this sin-desiring motivator?

- Not like that which indwells you & I, mind you, don’t
fall prey to that easy mistake of viewing Adam’s character
through that dark & dirty lens of what we know ourselves
to be.

WE are born in sin, but Adam, the original sinner, who not
only didn’t have a sin nature, but had the best of
everything which was sin’s ANTITHESIS: God’s Spirit, God’s
image, God’s likeness, and most of all: LIFE,
was somehow, somewhere, supposedly indwelt with a desire for sin & death?

WOW! My beloved just said “Yes” to marrying me!
&
I just won the lotto!! -I believe I’ll celebrate by stepping in front of a moving semi-truck! …Ludicrous.
Where is logic & reason in this so-called ‘choice’ of Adam’s,
because I’m not seeing it if there is.

– And that’s just the BEGINNING of the book… !!! ???

It has always seemed to me:
Too much religion, not enough reason.

“…Having for every man, a reason for the Faith…”

I like your thoughts, Bev.

In the end, and after all the Calvinism, Arminism, and
all that around & between, isn’t it simply about God
making a platform wherein he could create friends?

Not just limited, fleshly robotic beings, but real
friends on HIS plane of existence, ‘Spiritual’ friends…? -A method by which free-willed beings of flash will become trancendent Spiritual beings through the substitutionary life of Jesus the Christ.

I HAVE to hold on to something reasonable, without which
life would be no more than a big pointless Godly mistake
filled with pain, injustice, horror & death.

- Oh, and lots of religious debates, arguments and wars.

====================================================

Tashina Feb.15, is 45 now.

1)What DID the fall do to mankind. The Bible certainly talks as though it indeed has had an effect upon us.

2)If God can not transfer sins/guilt then did Christ bear our sins?

So, God is the author of Sin? He is the willful originator of evil?

So God is not wholly good?

I like your argument that you make here. Christ’s sacrifice is greater than Adam’s sin. I agree and support that totally, 100%. The cross cancels out the results of Adam’s sin. I don’t know if the text warrants the use of the term “completely” or not. But at least we can come into agreement, I think, on the fact that it undoes the spiritual and legal standing effects of Adam.

Would you agree that Paul is saying that all must be in Adam to be affected by death? Would agree that Paul is arguing that all must be in Christ to receive the grace and justification? Otherwise, if we do not have to be in Christ, then justification comes to all men and it does not depend upon faith. That would counter everything Paul has argued thus far in the epistle. I would say that for the sin of Adam and the consequences of that sin are only conceled, to whatever degree you might argue, occur only when we are in a saving relationship with Christ.

I think that is the flaw of your argument. To be be in death is to be in sin which is to be in Adam. To be in life is to be in righteousness is to be in Christ. We must be either of Christ or of Adam. Adam in this text is sin and death. Therefore we stand in Adam, who is a condemned sinner. We stand condemned in Adam. Respond if you like. As I said in the other post, I do enjoy debating these issues.

I will say, this is why I am not a “hyper” calvinist. I am not a calvinist who thinks he has to go and beat any and everyone over the head with his doctrine until they agree with him. But when asked about it, I will defend my convictions vigorously. I hope in this vigor I have not stepped on toes.

In His Sovereign Grace,
Henry Imler, Romans 8:28-30

I already said this but I will use scripture to make others happy! Romans 5:15-19:

“But the gift is not like the trepass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin. The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, bu the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man how much mor will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteouness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for al men so also the result of one act of righteouness was justifcation that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made rightous.”

Basically here is my formula:
1) Christ and his sacrifice are greater than Adam and his sin (15-17).
2) Christ’s cross completely cancels the results of Adam’s sin (18-19).

*this is only a portion of chapter 5 of Romans so more I can add, but this should suffice for our debate.

*If Adam gave us oringal sin, then Christ gave us “orignal grace” which cancels the sin. casey

Ps. Bob, if by chance I have annoyed you are you have felt like I have been rude to you or something, I am sorry. i never atteneded anything of the such. Just reading your post, you sounded a little upset (hopefully I am just making this up, but I do apolize if I have offended) casey

Henry Michael, you said that sin is in effect “nurture not nature.” Ephesians 2:1-3 says by nature we are children of wrath. It is our nature. OUr nature is to incurr God’s wrath. How do we do that? back up in v. 2-3 we see living according to Satan, his will, the ways of the world, and according to our flesh. Sounds like Paul is saying that these ways of incurring God’s wrath is something we are born with.

If theoretically one can live sinlessly and not practically, why is that? I have reread your post and it is not making sense to me. If we are practically incapable, then how is it theoretically. There is confusion in my higher Souther Baptist (hehehehe) brain that needs some straightening out. If you could further explain that part of the comment I’d be much obliged.