Biblical Manhood
This past week on the Albert Mohler Program that I get by podcast, he has been addressing gender issues. At the start of the week he was discussing stay-at-home moms and one feminist’s beliefs that say those moms are “letting down the team.” Thursday, he was discussing plagiarism in the pulpit and how wrong it is for a pastor to take another’s sermon and say he authored it–not to be confused from quoting another sermon or work. Yesterday he addressed a new movement called GodMen. The big issue that this group raises is the issue of manhood in the church and the lack of men in the church. I went to their website (linked above) and I found the issues raised to be valid ones. In fact, if you have read Wild at Heart and Waking the Dead by John Eldridge, you might recognize the vision. They feel that “church” is geared to women and to children who need the safety of holding hands and singing love songs to Jesus but does nothing to engage the masculine, testosterone fueled nature of men. They are very vulgar in their language and play rock music in attempts to draw guys in. They are not trying to be another promise keepers movement because this is a guys only movement, 17 years of age and men only aloud here. They point out something I have noticed in my church, more women than men come and do anything in the church.
My question is two-fold. First, what does it mean to be a man? Or let me put it this way, what is biblical manhood? How should we define being a man according to the Bible? My second question is this, does GodMen and the like have the answer we need or do they fall short? Does comedian Brad Stein have the answer men need to recover a masculine presence in the church and in the home and in our culture? What are your thoughts on these questions?
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Comments
To be a helper.
You do know that the word for “helper” is only used to refer to one other person/group in the Bible, right?
That person was God…
I have a ton to say about this, but don’t have much time right nwo. You can read my post linked below for some of my thoughts: Mindful Mission:: Manliness and Godliness
Edited for link.
I was only trying to give a snippet of my sermonic points. I was only trying to answer Henry’s question, and I believe that to understand (or to better understand) man we also have to try to understand woman.
“you do konw that the word for helper is only used to refer to one other person/group in the bible, right”
That is really a silly thing to bring up, because I was not devalueing or talking bad about women. That would be the last thing on my agenda. Like I said I was just trying to give a small piece of my sermon that I was preaching yesterday. If someone has questions about what I believe (or what the bible says) then I would be happy to answer them.
So Casey, you are saying that a man according to the Bible is: a leader,a hard worker, one who keeps his word. I did like the Numbers 30 point about women being able to be released from vows but not men. What do you think of John Eldrige’s vision of a man and how to recover that masculinity that is God the Father, the Warrior (Ex. 15:3)? Does he and Brad Stein have the right idea to get back what our society has taken from men, namely a biblical masculinity?
On a side note for you to consider. I think, if I have read GodMen.org correctly, they would think some of your statements would be part of the problem. Statements like, “I think that to fully understand what a man is we also have to understand what a women is,” and “I believe that to understand (or to better understand) man we also have to try to understand woman..” Now I am not saying I think that is part of the problem or a wrong approach, but my question is how would you respond to that criticism, if I am reading Brad Stein correctly?
I do not think there is much difference to what I said and what John Eldrige’s idea of man. The only thing that might be different is that Eldrige (I won’t talk about Stein, because I have never read anything by him-So I won’t debate for/against anything with him) has his “propagnada.” Just like most of the big name teachers/leaders, they have their “stuff” (stuff is a technical term!). Rick Warren–Driven, John Eldrige has his warrior image. Is a warrior a leader? Is a warrior a hard worker? Is a warrior a man who keeps his word? Some might say yes to all three of those questions (I might too). But I was not trying to follow Eldrige, just trying to answer Henry’s original question. My answers were only what I see scripture to say and not on cultural issues.
I think philosphically, I am right with trying to understand men/women together. One way to study a subject is to study everything it is not, then by simple process of elimination we can deduct what the other is.
I might be missing the your point/question. If so, my bad. I really do not see/know of any problems with what I said and Godmen. I have jsut briefly looked at their core values. So my friend I do not know if I can answer your question. (*let me make a sidenote here that I will say something about at the end of this comment)I probably won’t get wrapped up in any discussions dealing with the issue of “equality” or “can a woman be a leader/elder” or do women have to be quiet or submissive.” Like I said, I probably won’t say much about that stuff, because that is not my desire and I really don’t need to argue/debate/discuss that topic. But if someone ask a question, I will try to answer it.
I was never intending to annoy or frustrate anyone. Like I said in my other comments on this post. I was just preaching through this issue and thought I would give my scripture references (not my main points) to my sermons.
*This might by HT’s question/answer. Some of the confusion might come just because Godmen, Eldrige, Maxwell, Farror, Scott, and myself might actually say the same thing, but with a different image/metaphor. Eldrige might say men need to be warriors, Maxwell might paint the picture of professional CEO leader man; but they are just repackaging the same thought. I assume Eldrige would agree with everything I said (which all I said is that men need to work, lead, and keep their word).
Henry Thomas, I know you are the biggest Piper fan. Just letting you know that Uncle Charlie and family sent me a Christmas card and Piper’s book “Pleasures of God (I think thats the title).”
You answered them. I just wanted to see what you thought of GodMen and if their views of manhood fit the biblical view. If I understand you corretly, you haven’t read much of Brad Stein (he is the driving force behind GodMen and Eldridge is a contributor)but you feel that Eldgridge wouldn’t necessarily disagree with your “man” in principle (man is is “” because it is the idea of a man not man himself). I wasn’t confused about what you had said and I pretty much agree with your defninition of manhood from the Bible and the need to understand what man is not also. My question was two-fold and I wanted to see how you would interact with GodMen’s ideas.
I’ve hear the sermons in that book and it is very much a book of Puritan theology, especially Jonathan Edwards.
I would like one of you (HT or Casey) to make a post outlining these theories. I think then I could take a crack at evaluating it. I am just out of this loop.
So Casey, you are saying that a man according to the Bible is: a leader,a hard worker, one who keeps his word. I did like the Numbers 30 point about women being able to be released from vows but not men.
Are we supposed to keep all of the OT commandments?
Are women not supposed to be hard working, leaders, or people who keep their word?
A bit of an aside, I want to study this issue, and I am withholding my judgment until I do.
it is the idea of a man not man himself
What if our very idea of man is flawed (in our sinful nature)?
Ok, I have looked over the FAQ a bit. I guess a distinction should be made between their goals and their methods of obtaining their goals.
Ok, I have looked over the FAQ a bit. I guess a distinction should be made between their goals and their methods of obtaining their goals.
It looks like at least some of their goals are good ones:
These lay leaders dare to confront directly the forces that are decimating Christian men today forces such as:
- Pornography: the result of good sexual desires going in the wrong direction.
- Fatherlessness: which leaves a huge hole in a man’s soul.
- False Piety: creating a caricature of ‘Gentle Jesus Meek and Mild’ which has ruined countless lives.
- Anti-Intellectualism: which has driven many thinking men from the fortress of faith.
- Isolation: the quest for spiritual self-sufficiency, which leaves men exposed to attack and ashamed of defeat
I like those. The one that more than likely it the most debated is the false piety.
Something that I wonder about in all of this is the following:
GodMen reflects a fresh movement among Christian men, a return to biblical patterns of masculinity. Its purpose is to create better disciples, citizens, husbands, and fathers.
Notice what this assumes - that there is a final and singular pattern for male behavior, and that pattern is found solely in the bible.
Now, even if one grants that assumption - and I would gather to say it might be an unfounded one - a series of lines need to be drawn.
Surely not all of the biblical examples of men’s behavior should be emulated. Cain? Pharaoh of Moses’ day? Ah, but the bible explicitly says that their actions were not good ones.
Now, what about the male heroes of the bible? David, Solomon, Abraham, ect… are we to follow their behavior?
Surely not completely and whole-heartedly. Should I take many wives? Surely not.
Also, if one is to embrace the “natural desires” of men - be weary because one is then treading on dangerous ground. Especially if one holds to the radical and utter transformation of the human condition by the Fall. Is the natural tendencies, a by-product of the fall?
However, while Jesus did preach turning the other check, he did drive the money lenders out of the temple.
I will try to speak about this subject with gentlness and respect to all (men and women who might read this). I will try to be has detailed and thorough as I can be too. And I hope that my attempt to be detailed will not offend anyone.
I will get to what I mean in a second but let me start off with this:
The underlying question that HT asked, “What is biblical Manhood?”
For me to find that answer I would have to give a biblical answer. That is what I did with hard worker, vow keeper, leader. (my actual answers were Gen 2, Numb 30, and Eph 5)I just happened to be preaching on this topic and that is why I mentioned these things. I am not exculding other qualities but trying to include those three things into “biblical manhood.” There might (probably are) be more things than just the ones I mentioned.
I will now turn to my three characteristics and describe in more detail what I mean.
Hard Worker. Before the fall of man, God had already told Man to work. And after the fall, God told Man to work. Also, think about the tons of proverbs that describe how righteous men are hard workers. There seems to be a biblical principle that Men should be hard workers. Side note. I am examining the issue of biblical manhood not women. To say that men have to be hard workers does not negect women to be workers. But on the same token, the issue of women being hard workers is a very general command. Righteous women need to be hard workers too. But there really seems to be a specifically designed pattern for Men to be Hard Workers. God told man to work. Does that make sense?
Vow keeping. Numbers 30 shares that men need to keep their vows. The same logic can be applied to this subject as the previous. I won’t say much here unless questions arise from someone. Righteous women and men need to keep their word. But specifically men need to keep their word. Side note. Do we follow the OT? Well, that is really another topic to discuss, but I will briefly say two things. No, we do not live under the old covenant. Yes, we do follow God’s standard of living. There are some things that are mentioned in the OT and NT that we still follow. New Testament talks about keeping our word still. Righteous men keep their word.
Leader. This topic could be lengthy in discussion. But here is my few thoughts:
We see this discussion in the bible center around the fact that God created man First. New Testament and Old Testament both refer to this fact when the role of men and women are discussed in scripture. Because Paul refers to Genesis, it seems like this issue in not cultural but it applies to everyone in all times. God made man to lead the family/church. But also consider some things too. First, when the NT talks about men leading/women submitting there is one issue that is always forgotten. The bigger picture of those context always dsecribe how EVERYONE has to submit to someone. Men don’t walk around holding their balls telling women to bow before them. But righteous people realize their is a God-giving design for authority. I submit to the elders of the church, I submit to the government and pay taxes. I submit to God. If there is a time when men are not Godly leading the family then Women can do what is right. When the governing authroities are acting wrong we do not submit to them but to God. But also, a godly man will listen to his wife. Two heads are better than one. I think when this is actually happening no woman would ever feel “less” or “devalued.” Another issue is trying to explain what leading actually is. The bibical leadership idea, I believe, is based on serving others. Which think about that. Leading is serving, and submitting (i use this word very losely) is serving too. This attitude of serving is the key. When I put my wife first, and she puts me first then our marriage is going to be happy. I am trying to take care her and she has someone to do the same thing. Henry, you might have some questions…feel free to ask them.
One thing I will say is that it is obvious that one thing is true. Men and Women truly are different. I do not believe anyone sane person can say women are equal to men in all things or men or equal to women in all things. Try to put a football helment on Meredith and let a NFL linebacker tackler her (notice I did not use my wife, cause I don’t want her to get hurt!) Women have that motherly instinct, and when my son scrapes his knee he will run to mommy not daddy. Daddy will laugh at him and tell him to walk it off. Men are different from women. Not better not worse, just different. Most men excell in areas where women lack and vice versa. I believe God as specifically designed and created these qualities in man/woman. And when men or women try to fulfill the role of the other their will be conflict in that relationship. (I think I will stop there, before this comment becomes the longest on record!).
Henry, I undestand what you are saying with your critique of Godmen. but if we are Christians, if we are trying to find what it means to be Godly men…then the bible is the place to go. I do not know much about Godmen. So I don’t want to speak out of turn for them. But you highlighted “biblical patterns of masculinity.” I don’t think that means following certain characters in bible…and following there pattern. But trying to find the biblcal pattern theme of manhood in the bible. So of the characters might be great examples some might be better examples of how not to live. All of this needs to be balanced with the rest of Scripture too. That is why I have one wife not many. that is why I do not kill people named Stephen even so Paul said follow me as I follow Christ.
I don’t have time to respond to this whole comment, or thread, but I needed to respond to this.
I do not believe anyone sane person can say women are equal to men in all things or men or equal to women in all things. Try to put a football helment on Meredith and let a NFL linebacker tackler her (notice I did not use my wife, cause I don’t want her to get hurt!)
Hmmm…if I let a NFL linebacker tackle me, that would not go so well either. Don’t support a generalized argument with a specific exception like an NFL football player.
Women have that motherly instinct, and when my son scrapes his knee he will run to mommy not daddy. Daddy will laugh at him and tell him to walk it off.
So cultural pressures and norms have nothing to do with this? I know for a fact that I don’t laugh at someone when they fall and hurt their knee. Maybe I am not “manly” enough. I would also like to know how something like a father telling their hurt son to “walk it off” is Biblical manhood.
Men are different from women. Not better not worse, just different. Most men excell in areas where women lack and vice versa.
How so? And again, I would like to see examples that do not have cultural roots.
The gender roles that society places on men and women are not solely genetic, but in reality are related to cultural norms and mores. The same can and should be said for the issues like “motherly instincts” or men being hard asses.
Women have that motherly instinct, and when my son scrapes his knee he will run to mommy not daddy. Daddy will laugh at him and tell him to walk it off.So cultural pressures and norms have nothing to do with this?
The cultural norms and pressures are trying to switch the roles of men and women that the Bible established. The world today is advocating moms to be the ones cursed to work the fields and the dads cursed to labor with children. This problem has been established by GodMen and they are seeking to change it. I agree with them that the Church needs to find the biblical definition of manhood, womanhood, and gender roles. For too long it has been following the “cultural norms and mores.” I am working on a either a post or comment on my definition of biblical manhood. I think Casey’s points are excellent points.
Dave, you want examples. But you do not even understand your question. You ask about providing examples that do not have cultural roots. That is a silly statement. Every single person lives in their own society. It is impossible to create an example of someone living outside their society. Obviously, I can not do that. But that does not matter to this topic. You propose that our culture makes these “beliefs” about women and men’s roles not God. Then my brother, he who asserts must also prove. I have laid do my understand of scripture to HT’s question, “what is biblical manhood?” All you have done is stated that I made examples that can not be logically corrcet. Actually, they can fit just fine in my framework and you have not disproved otherwise. I can support a genralized arugument with a general examples. I was not trying to give specific examples (even so I did).
Dave instead of just critiqeing my arguement, answer the question. What is biblical Manhood?
Please, understand I do not wish to tick you off or “fight” over these things. I hope that these things to not offend you.
I just preached, last weekend, on “what does it mean to be a godly man.”
Here is my basic thoughts:
1) Genesis 1-3 shows that God created man to be a hard worker. Men need to be workers!
2) Numbers 30 (cool text)- Men of God keep their word. Women had the oppurtunity to be released from their vows, men could not. Godly men keep their word.
3) Eph.5- Men lead. (leading is a bigger topic than I will talk about here, unless someone has a question). Men Lead
Out of these three qualities, I believe number 3 is key. I think that to fully understand what a man is we also have to understand what a women is.
Just in case someone would like to know; here it is (this weeks sermon):
1) Genesis God designed Woman different from man. God searched and found no suitable helper…so a new creature was made…woman. To be a helper.
2) This does not devalue a woman, but ironically it adds value to them. They were designed by God for a very special purpose, to help. Men need help!
3) 1 Peter 3- Wives submit to husbands (this is much like nubmer three above, there is much to say on this topic but I will save it unless a friend ask questions).
I think those 3 points for men and women are a good starting point to begin.