In light of some of our recent discussions on original sin, I found a recent blog entry from challies.com to be insightful. I am going to pull out a couple of quotes from the post and then give the link to the entire post after that…
Here are the quotes I would like to highlight:
The Bible tells us in plain terms that we are not sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners.
The gospel paints us as we really are–as sinners who sin because of our fundamental guilt, our fundamental hatred of God. Only when we see ourselves as sinners can we truly see Christ as Savior.
Read the entire article here: Guilt For Particular Sins.
7 Comments
I keep coming to the objection that for Christ’s death to be meaningful, he would have to of been fully human as well as fully God and thus a sinner.
how can God be a sinner and satisfy God’s wrath towards sin through the sacrifice of a ‘perfect Lamb.’ this line of reasoning denies the Bible’s claims that Jesus was sinless:
1 Peter 1:18-21
18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
henry, is this honestly your objection or are you priming the pump? to say that Jesus was a sinner is borderline blasphemous and unbiblical…if that is what you are saying [maybe you meant to say he had the capability to sin]
sorry this is a strong response, i’m just concerned about the language…
maybe the other contributors can let me know if i’m off on this…
What i am saying is that since Jesus was not sinful and he was human, then that might suggest that humans are not sinful, but sinners.
I am using Jesus here as a counter-example, an exception that disproves the rule.
Either way, you have to deal with the question of how a fully human (and fully God) Jesus was not sinful, but the rest of humanity (save for Adam and Eve for a bit) were/are/will be. So, while there might be a work-around under the system - it just needs to be stated.
But, let me preface this by saving I have not taken the time to read the whole article - perhaps he dealt with it. In a few days I hope to read it and alot of other stuff (and get around to doing all of that photoshopping for your dates).
I have a question for the authors here. Do you hold to the impaccability of Jesus or the peccability of Jesus? In other words, was Jesus not able to sin or was he able not to sin?
Oh - you beat me to it. I was saving that one for next week.
But, I hold that he was able to sin - otherwise there was no temptation.
The most satisfactory explanation that I have heard is that Jesus had two wills - his “God will” and his “human will.” The “human will” was just like ours - able to be tempted in every way. The “God will” was above all of this, so to speak, and was unable to be tempted. So, part of Him could and part of Him could not sin. However, the two wills were in perfect harmony. Thus, His human will, while it could sin, did not because of its harmony with the “God will.”
But, I do maintain that Jesus had to have the ability to sin even though He did not. He had a fleshy nature to him as all humans do that tempts and pulled him to sin, yet he resisted in a way that our feeble minds cannot.
However, I would like to make this into its own topic, Jesus and the ability to sin.
Ok, back to the article.
I am just not sure about this low view of sin angle. To me, we are sinful creatures. While we are not iherently damned to hell coming from our good and wise creator, as a result of the Fall and the resulting cultures we have a natural tendency to sin - a lot.
With each’s first sin they are damned to hell. Absolutely nothing can be done about it, save for the grace of God. But I think that is the real trick about the grace of God - we are free of condemnation. We are freed from the burdens of sin. We rely on Christ and are freed to do good works rather than worry about our salvation. Does not mean we are not sinners still, just that their is no elephant in the room with a gun to our heads.
I would deny the following:
I take issue with a lot of that. Something that I am very concerned about is a low view of God’s creation in branches of Xianity. We are sinful, yes, but we are also the wonderful creation of God, the wonderful creator. I don’t want to devalue that which God has declared to be of such value that the Father sent His Son and the Son came to die for those that God has given worth to.
I think that one can walk the line of holding to human’s imbued worth by God and that we, in our free will, have fallen from the place of holiness that God wants us to be in.
I don’t think many people think they stop sinning once they are forgiven, or once God helps them to be good people. Under the view I espouse, it is only by relying on God’s grace and power that one can leave his guilt behind and go forward in the truth.
Doesn’t this view negate the need for the Holy Spirit? If the will was truly free, then someone must have lived the perfect life besides the God-Man Jesus right? God said in Ezekiel 36:26-27 that the obedience is caused by the new heart of flesh and the Spirit of God being put into that man. But if the will was totally free, God would not need to give us the Holy Spirit to cause us to be obedient.
Henry, perhaps you can answer this question by defining your position on t the need of regeneration by the Spirit/rebirth/new birth. Also, what did Paul mean by the term nekros in Ephesians 2:1-3, 5? Can you also gives your interpretation on that, since this specifically relates to new birth? Also, I know that Bob has asked several times for you view of the Fall and its effects. I don’t remember if you have been able to answer that fully. Can you give us your position, either putting down or linking to the appropriate post? I think this will help aid this discussion.