Comments on: Justice

By: Theology for the Masses » Blog Archive » Preliminary Thoughts - Rich Chrisitans in an Age of Hunger

Thu, 22 May 2008 21:52:12 +0000

[...] skepticism I get the need. I do, I really do. My problem is the solution, or lack thereof. I see certain programs that are [...]

By: Hundie Jo [dot] Com » Blog Archive » Preliminary Thoughts - Rich Chrisitans in an Age of Hunger

Thu, 22 May 2008 21:46:00 +0000

[...] skepticism I get the need. I do, I really do. My problem is the solution, or lack thereof. I see certain programs that are [...]

By: Jake

Jake — Thu, 06 Mar 2008 20:43:59 +0000

I hope I didn’t sound defensive. I am glad you are thinking about it more than just on Sunday.
So have we come up with an acceptable worldview of justice that allows us to act?
I read this series of comments as, “We can’t do anything yet, because we don’t really know what justice is, and we would hate to get it wrong.”
I realized also, that maybe I didn’t answer what communally we can do to enact justice, but rather individually. I suppose to me I can only truly act as an individual and hope that others will act similarly. Do you agree?
(also, sorry I am terribly slow at responding)

By: Thinking Christian » Christian Carnival CCXIV

Thinking Christian » Christian Carnival CCXIV — Wed, 05 Mar 2008 18:57:45 +0000

[...] a Reversal of Violence. Also from Theology for the Masses, but by a different author, Henry Imler: Justice. And again, Cheapham presents On creation posted at Theology for the Masses. (Check out the comments [...]

By: Hank

Hank — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:38:22 +0000

This helps helps refine our understanding of "justice" from a biblical perspective. I really encourage you to look up the different words. If I remember right, mishpat has a more social justice idea that you are looking for, whereas tsadak refers to righteousness (especially in a more moral sense). This is just building that foundation that Casey was speaking of. With the solid foundation in place, we can start to piece together how the Bible views social justice and use that as a blue print to what we should do. Even though I like to think of myself as NCT (click here and here for more info on NCT), the Mosaic Law really gives a good blue print to how God expected to care for those in need--both in terms of possession and lifestyle.

By: Henry (Honzo) Imler

Henry (Honzo) Imler — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:28:03 +0000

So, what is involved with tsadak and mishpat and how does it impact this issue?

By: Hank

Hank — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 17:21:06 +0000

To kind of go along the same vein as Casey was saying, I think that one must understand the difference between justice in terms of tsadak and mishpat. These two Hebrew words do not mean the same thing. Isaiah 61:8 and Zecharaiah 7:8-10 speak of mishpat and not tsadak. However the LXX rendering of the texts uses δικαιοσύνην (Is. 61:8) and κρίμα δίκαιον (Zech. 7:8-10) (LXX translations are found here and here respectively). The δικα- word group would not help distinguish the different notions that the Hebrew has. I think this would be the best place to start in terms of understanding the biblical notion of justice.

By: casey

casey — Thu, 28 Feb 2008 00:37:19 +0000

Honzo,
I totally agree. But I believe my starting point should always at the place of the big picture idea. For me to know how “justice” applies to me means that I need to understand the big picture of God’s justice (however we determine it). Our view of God’s justice will shape our concrete views of how we need to live “justice” out daily. You are right, your post isn’t focusing on the theological aspects of God’s justice, but I hope to answer your question of “what is my action plan” by starting at the foundational level of understanding God’s justice. Justice (theolgically) is a huge theme throughout the bible. And many have an incorrect view of it which shapes their spiritual lives (an example might be that church that goes around to all the Military funerals and protest outside–or an old man who doesn’t want to interact with a bunch of sinners). Likewise, a good hearted person who seeks to do good might inadvertently do bad simply because of their ill-understanding of what Justice should mean. (I would assume the old man and the church that protest would say that they are “good hearted”)

You were just asking for a plan of action…i was just trying to give one.

You bring up an great point. We sometimes “put Justice” into God’s hands to rid ourselves from duties of helping mankind.
casey

By: Honzo

Honzo — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 21:37:28 +0000

Jake,

I appreciate your help with good, concrete examples. Please don’t take this necessarily as critique of what we are going in class at all - just somethings Meredith and I have been talking about after class.

Josh,

Thanks for the good post! I am really trying to incorporate a real critique of consumptionism and a replacement in my life. The need to move beyond it as a whole is paramount - and, in my opinion, a need to redefine poverty in terms of living conditions, not material possessions.

Casey,

What is justice? Let me tell you a story about a city. Plato jokes aside, a theory of Justice (and not the Ralls book) is needed. In the Xian circles I have been a part of, there has been a great emphasis on unearthly justice and the need to let God be God here on earth. However, the passages above (and others) speak against that and demand our active engagement in the creation of just situations. When I talk about “material justice” I am trying in invoke a certain flavor of justice, not describe the totality of justice. Justice as it intersects with our earthly lives. So, I am just talking about that aspect of justice.

By: josh

josh — Wed, 27 Feb 2008 18:55:03 +0000

thanks for the link! i just wrote my friend an email about this last night. it’s below. thought it was sort of relevant to the conversation.

that’s what i’ve been thinking about a bit. i tried to talk to shane claiborne about this at the conference i was at. cause all those guys keep talking about sustainability, downward mobility, and all that jazz but that’s not exactly enticing to someone on the ground floor of the lower middle class. or even in poverty.

because they are still trying to move up. and in essence, are still building off of the same foundation of consumption as those at the top, thinking and believing that more stuff fixes the problem. or better stuff. or more sustainable stuff.

what we need is a larger critique of the myth of consumption. and not just the wealthy.