With the new style we somehow lost the ability to comment on pages. The following was a conversation I have consequently moved from our Greek New Testament Page.
Nice. I was just browsing for Luke 11:2. It is too bad that you can’t copy and paste from here. Since I’m here - how is it that we translate hmwn as “our father”? was is there in the sentence that makes us “our father” instead of just “abba” or pater? Is the “our” just part of the context? The Vulgate translation doesn’t say “nostro” or anything that looks like “our father”… Thanks in advance, and remember I don’t know greek so I”m just wondering.
E. I. Sanchez
EI,
I am a novice, but this is how I would translate this verse on its own:
And [Jesus] said to them: “Every time you [all] pray, say: ”Father, may the name of yours [your name] be holy; may the kingdom of yours [your kingdom] appear;’”
When it comes to the word pater (πάτερ) , or father, it is in the vocative, indicating that it is the thing being addressed. The feeling is that if you are addressing someone as father, it is perfectly fine to say “our father.” The NLT, ESV, and NRSV all leave out the word “our.”
For our resident Greek experts, Cheapham and Hank, if I am wrong about any of this, please let me know.
Honzo
I would agree that saying “Our Father” even though is not in the text because this is a model prayer and we can adapt it for a community setting. I am wondering if the imperative mood could come out more in the translation than what Honzo suggested. I’m not sure. When I pray, I also address Him as “My Father” or even “my Daddy.”
Hank
Hank, Which imperative? Aren’t there three imperatives here: say, be holy, and arrive? The last two are third person singular imperatives - I know to translate those as “lets” or “mays”.
How else can you do them? With that 2 person plural imperative “say” I thought about saying “[you all are to] say…” to capture the imperative flavor a little more. However, Jesus telling us to say something is technically just as imperative.
Honzo
2 Comments
I know there has been some time since this was posted but I have thought about bringing out the imperative force. I was referring to the imperatives directed towards πάτερ in the prayer, not the command that Jesus gives his disciples. I was thinking something more forceful like this: “Father, make your name holy, make your kingdom come.” The terms “let” or “may” seems to me like giving the Holy One of Israel, the one referred to as “I am he” permission to do something when he says in Isaiah that when he acts none can stay his hand (Isaiah 43:13). My own difficulty with this is now it sounds like one is bossing the same God around, telling him what to do. It’s a double-edge sword that I’m not likely to follow in translation, though I might bring out the force when I preach it.
I am just naming it and claiming it!