A. Don’t worry about upsetting me. You are far from approaching that in your comment!

B. I understand what you are saying. However, Mary’s song seems to support my argument (or my wondering position, since most of it is based on idle speculation at this point). God is doing all of those things (esp the throwing down of unjust governments), not Christians. Further, while there may be political criticism in Paul and by Jesus (and the authors of the Gospels), I see advocacy for Christian private replacements called for, not infiltration of government ranks and movement there. If there is anything that the generation should have learned is the peril of trying to play God in the creation of other’s governments.

I don’t see an impetus in the New Testament for Christians to be involved in governmental affairs. Now, I will acknowledge that our cannon might just be occasional enough as to not mention how we should orient ourselves in the creation of just societies by means of governmental involvement. If that is the case, then perhaps there is liberty in the various approaches that people are allowed to take, as long at it is Spirit-lead.

I don’t mean to say that we should not be concerned for the affairs of this world, but rather that we should not worry about Rome, but instead worry about our fellow human living in Rome, if that makes sense.

(note: A few years ago I was more neo-libertarian (libertarian that favors a pro-active role in the world because of the ramifications of inaction would ultimately be more detrimental to freedoms here [whoops]) than Christian and favored reshaping the world by whatever means necessary in order to create just societies in which people lived in politically and economically just societies. I have movede away from that. My stance now could quite possibly be the first step away from that.)

While I’m in agreement with the spirit of what you’ve written, I must respectfully disagree with this segment of your quote. There are all kinds of mandates in the NT to be concerned about the affairs of this world – why else would Paul have us be praying for kings and rules to rule with justice, why else would the political rhetoric of Jesus and Paul be so prevalent in the NT? Even criticism entails some sort of “concern for the affairs” of the world.

Furthermore, while I agree with JR that violence is not part of the Christian ethic, this does not at all entail that “throwing down rulers from their thrones and lifting up the poor” (See Mary’s Song) isn’t part of the Christian narrative! I think Saddam should’ve been taken from power – I just disagree with the violent means by which
it was done!

Hope my disagreement, here, was respectful and can further conversation.
Cheers, brother,
Tom

It is important that we are to disciple the nations – and that means, in some sense, we must be concerned about their affairs. Your non-violence in commendable, but that doesn’t necessitate non-involement.

I too used to feel the same way at one time…but unfortunately I was wrong. Saddam did kill some of his own people…in the late 80s. But that amount is no where near the almost 100,000 innocent civilians (which is an admittedly low estimate) who have been killed as a result of our unprompted (i.e. illegal) invasion of another country. Removing Saddam WAS NOT necessary, and our doing so has worsened the lives of millions of people and will have terrible ramifications for the entire Middle East for decades. There are victims indeed, and unfortunately our country is the initial perpetrator of that victimhood. There’s no freedom from oppression happening in Iraq, we merely replaced one oppressor with a far worse oppressive existence.

Violence begets violence. As long as we support systems that rule by the sword, the sword shall rule us. We, as Christians, are called to a different way of living…we are to follow Christ’s example and put down the sword and instead carry a cross. For us to support the mass violence of any war is to turn away from Christ. We need to stop justifying our actions and realize the sins we have committed, the violence we have perpetrated on a global scale. We have much to confess.

Thanks for your thoughts. I used to feel the same as you when you wrote:

going in to rid Iraq of a leader such as saddam was absolutely necessary

While a couple of years ago I would have agreed with you whole-heartedly, I have become convinced that the affairs of the world should not concern me, they concern God and I’ll let him take care of them. I do not see a need for Christians to go in and dispose rulers. I do not see that mandate anywhere in the Bible, most certainly not in the New Testament. In order to say we had to take down Saddam, you must be able to apply that uniformly. You must be able and willing to say that we need to violently reform all unjust governments. As a Christian, are you willing to say that?

My wants and desires as an American citizen (and as a godless libertarian) wants us to do that, to reform the world in our image for the world’s sake; but as a Christian, a follower of Christ, I cannot and therefore I cannot support actions which attempt to do so.

If I am coming off as harsh, I do not mean to do so. I used to follow the same line of reasoning as you seem to rogermugs, and I am listing what changed in my thought process.

going in to rid Iraq of a leader such as saddam was absolutely necessary. In the end there are probably just as many innocent people being killed as before he was ousted, but we cannot let the ends have justified the means. we had to do something.

i have a friend who was a gunner in the marines, he said he had to sit on top of a vehicle and gun people down that came too close to the caravan. frequently the combatants would use women and children as shields to get close, he had no choice but to gun them down.

there are several victims there, but evil is still at work…
i wish we could have gotten rid of saddam and never had a problem (i.e. the people all get along), but we live in a fallen world.

true freedom is freedom in christ. but freedom from oppression is something we WILL NOT experience in this life. it doesn’t mean we cannot try.

- hey i just found ya’ll… i’ll be coming back… we’d love to have some of ya’ll come join us at our theology forum, it offers a different kind of discussion.

forums.theologer.com

i started a thread based on this post:
http://forums.theologer.com/politics-f10/is-freedom-free-what-is-true-freedom-t70.htm#537