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	<title>Comments on: Terminology Question of the Day</title>
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	<description>Conversations in Theology and its interaction with Culture</description>
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		<title>By: Hank</title>
		<link>http://www.masstheology.com/2008/08/18/terminology-question-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-6467</link>
		<dc:creator>Hank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 22:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree that too many laypersons confuse Jesus with the Bible and that is just foolish. I can remember when I used to be so foolish. But that was before I really started to pay attention to grammar and syntax and words having meanings in particular contexts.

In my comments above, I was saying that &lt;em&gt;logos&lt;/em&gt; refers back to Psalm 95 specifically. But I think that Hebrews 4:2 does really speak to the good news of rest promised and never realized. I would say that &lt;em&gt;ho logos tou theou&lt;/em&gt; in Hebrews 4:12 could refer to that gospel in 4:2. However, I don&#039;t think that this refers to the spirit of Jesus. I just don&#039;t see how when this would be, as far as I know, the only place in Hebrews that &lt;em&gt;logos&lt;/em&gt; is used in a Johanine fashion (help me remember who else speaks of Jesus as &lt;em&gt;logos&lt;/em&gt; or something similar, I&#039;m drawing blank). I think it is too much of a stretch to make that case.

As for &lt;em&gt;logos&lt;/em&gt; referring to speech that is to be heard (like &lt;em&gt;rhema&lt;/em&gt; in Romans 10:17), this really gets to the primary usage of &lt;em&gt;logos&lt;/em&gt; in the LXX of the prophets. As I said above, it is used to translate &lt;em&gt;debar Yahweh&lt;/em&gt;. I would say that in a communication sense, &lt;em&gt;logos&lt;/em&gt; refers to a message. Thus I have no problem calling the Bible &quot;the Word of God&quot; or &quot;the word from/by God.&quot; I think that the confusion is calling Jesus &quot;Word&quot; because it is hard to comprehend Jesus as an inanimate and impersonal object that describes written and oral communication. I have no solutions to offer on this subject, I think we might be better off trying to rethink how we translate &lt;em&gt;logos&lt;/em&gt; in John 1:1-18--again with no solutions coming to mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that too many laypersons confuse Jesus with the Bible and that is just foolish. I can remember when I used to be so foolish. But that was before I really started to pay attention to grammar and syntax and words having meanings in particular contexts.</p>
<p>In my comments above, I was saying that <em>logos</em> refers back to <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=Psalm+95" title="Bible Gateway">Psalm 95</a> specifically. But I think that <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=Hebrews+4%3A2" title="Bible Gateway">Hebrews 4:2</a> does really speak to the good news of rest promised and never realized. I would say that <em>ho logos tou theou</em> in <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=Hebrews+4%3A12" title="Bible Gateway">Hebrews 4:12</a> could refer to that gospel in 4:2. However, I don&#8217;t think that this refers to the spirit of Jesus. I just don&#8217;t see how when this would be, as far as I know, the only place in Hebrews that <em>logos</em> is used in a Johanine fashion (help me remember who else speaks of Jesus as <em>logos</em> or something similar, I&#8217;m drawing blank). I think it is too much of a stretch to make that case.</p>
<p>As for <em>logos</em> referring to speech that is to be heard (like <em>rhema</em> in <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=Romans+10%3A17" title="Bible Gateway">Romans 10:17</a>), this really gets to the primary usage of <em>logos</em> in the LXX of the prophets. As I said above, it is used to translate <em>debar Yahweh</em>. I would say that in a communication sense, <em>logos</em> refers to a message. Thus I have no problem calling the Bible &#8220;the Word of God&#8221; or &#8220;the word from/by God.&#8221; I think that the confusion is calling Jesus &#8220;Word&#8221; because it is hard to comprehend Jesus as an inanimate and impersonal object that describes written and oral communication. I have no solutions to offer on this subject, I think we might be better off trying to rethink how we translate <em>logos</em> in <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=John+1%3A1-18" title="Bible Gateway">John 1:1-18</a>&#8211;again with no solutions coming to mind.</p>
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		<title>By: Honzo</title>
		<link>http://www.masstheology.com/2008/08/18/terminology-question-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-6464</link>
		<dc:creator>Honzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 22:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>E.I.
&lt;blockquote&gt;Why should we have to explain ourselves?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
That is a very good question.  Surely we consider the Bible to be words from God.  However, language is extremely powerful.  The words we use shape our reality in almost tangible ways.  (No word of faith stuff, just the power of words as containers of ideas) As I mentioned in my response to Hank, I&#039;ve been around many a layperson who has confused the Word that is God with the word from God.  Because of the ease of that transposition, I favor keeping distinct terms in my everyday and teaching language.  It avoids dangerous confusion.  That is why I am uncomfortable with it - seeing the misuse in real life.  I like your charge of laziness.  Its a good parallel. 

I&#039;m not advocating a low view of scripture, as I recognize that the term scripture seems almost too weak for me.  

But, as best I can understand it, the Bible is a message from God.  It&#039;s not an active and living force in the world - that is the Holy Spirit and it is not equal to the Bible.

So, while we certainly don&#039;t have to explain ourselves, I find this to be a useful question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>E.I.</p>
<blockquote><p>Why should we have to explain ourselves?</p></blockquote>
<p>That is a very good question.  Surely we consider the Bible to be words from God.  However, language is extremely powerful.  The words we use shape our reality in almost tangible ways.  (No word of faith stuff, just the power of words as containers of ideas) As I mentioned in my response to Hank, I&#8217;ve been around many a layperson who has confused the Word that is God with the word from God.  Because of the ease of that transposition, I favor keeping distinct terms in my everyday and teaching language.  It avoids dangerous confusion.  That is why I am uncomfortable with it &#8211; seeing the misuse in real life.  I like your charge of laziness.  Its a good parallel. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not advocating a low view of scripture, as I recognize that the term scripture seems almost too weak for me.  </p>
<p>But, as best I can understand it, the Bible is a message from God.  It&#8217;s not an active and living force in the world &#8211; that is the Holy Spirit and it is not equal to the Bible.</p>
<p>So, while we certainly don&#8217;t have to explain ourselves, I find this to be a useful question.</p>
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		<title>By: Honzo</title>
		<link>http://www.masstheology.com/2008/08/18/terminology-question-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-6463</link>
		<dc:creator>Honzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 20:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.masstheology.com/2008/08/18/terminology-question-of-the-day/#comment-6463</guid>
		<description>Hank,

Protestants confuse the Word as Jesus with scriptures all the time.  Listen to their songs about the Bible - they border on idolatry.  It&#039;s subtle and most people miss it.  At least that has happened in the multiple Baptist, Presbyterian,  and the Churches of Christ churches I have attended for years each.  It is because of this background that I wanna play it safer.  Surely, the Bible is a &quot;word from the Lord&quot; but given John and elsewhere in the Bible where Jesus is the divine λογος I think there is practical warrant for maintaining a deep distinction in our everyday language.

Also, I am not sure that the author of Hebrews is talking about the OT in 4:12 as I read it as talking about the spirit of Jesus - that is it active in our lives.  How does one come to your conclusion?  I might be wrong, but the context seems to support it being the spirit of Jesus in our lives.  For instance, 13 talks about the Word judging and verse fourteen begins with a therefore and launches in talking about Jesus as the high priest. (the :. starting v14, the judging role it plays, etc...)  Again, I could be wrong, but it seems like right there is a place were we confuse the bible with Jesus.  Heck, I might even be doing it the other way around!

Does logos connect to verse 14 or does it harken back to verse 2 where the λογος is used when talking about the hearing of the good news?  Then again, given the fact that λογος can mean word and speech and in verse two the emphasis is on speech and hearing, that might cloud this even more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hank,</p>
<p>Protestants confuse the Word as Jesus with scriptures all the time.  Listen to their songs about the Bible &#8211; they border on idolatry.  It&#8217;s subtle and most people miss it.  At least that has happened in the multiple Baptist, Presbyterian,  and the Churches of Christ churches I have attended for years each.  It is because of this background that I wanna play it safer.  Surely, the Bible is a &#8220;word from the Lord&#8221; but given John and elsewhere in the Bible where Jesus is the divine λογος I think there is practical warrant for maintaining a deep distinction in our everyday language.</p>
<p>Also, I am not sure that the author of Hebrews is talking about the OT in 4:12 as I read it as talking about the spirit of Jesus &#8211; that is it active in our lives.  How does one come to your conclusion?  I might be wrong, but the context seems to support it being the spirit of Jesus in our lives.  For instance, 13 talks about the Word judging and verse fourteen begins with a therefore and launches in talking about Jesus as the high priest. (the :. starting v14, the judging role it plays, etc&#8230;)  Again, I could be wrong, but it seems like right there is a place were we confuse the bible with Jesus.  Heck, I might even be doing it the other way around!</p>
<p>Does logos connect to verse 14 or does it harken back to verse 2 where the λογος is used when talking about the hearing of the good news?  Then again, given the fact that λογος can mean word and speech and in verse two the emphasis is on speech and hearing, that might cloud this even more.</p>
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		<title>By: Hank</title>
		<link>http://www.masstheology.com/2008/08/18/terminology-question-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-6462</link>
		<dc:creator>Hank</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 19:42:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>In this conversation, one must remember that the author of Hebrews uses &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;&quot;&gt;ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ&lt;/span&gt; to speak of the OT, specifically Psalm 95 (Hebrews 4:12). So even the New Covenant community understood the scriptures as &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;&quot;&gt;ὁ λόγος&lt;/span&gt;. The OT was viewed as &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: SBL Hebrew; font-size: x-large;&quot;&gt;דְבַר־יְ֠הוָה&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; (word of Yahweh), which the LXX translates &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;&quot;&gt;λόγος &lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;&quot;&gt;κυρίου&lt;/span&gt; (Ezekiel 1:3 LXX). The problem doesn&#039;t end here because not only does the NT use &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;&quot;&gt;λόγος&lt;/span&gt; and γραφή , it also uses &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;&quot;&gt;ῥῆμα&lt;/span&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;&quot;&gt;&lt;/span&gt;--which means &quot;sayings&quot; (cf. Romans 10:17 and Epheisans 6:17). Paul uses all three terms. All three point to the same object.

Quite frankly, I have no problem referring to the Bible as the Bible, the Scriptures, the Word of God. When people hear &quot;word of God&quot; I don&#039;t think that they immediately think of Jesus but of the Bible. Word in English is a very impersonal noun. I think that the difficulty lies not with calling the canonical books that Christians believe to be inspired &quot;Word&quot; but rather with understanding what John meant when he used &lt;span style=&quot;font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;&quot;&gt;ὁ λόγος&lt;/span&gt; to describe Jesus in John 1:1-18 and putting that into English.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In this conversation, one must remember that the author of Hebrews uses <span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;">ὁ λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ</span> to speak of the OT, specifically <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=Psalm+95" title="Bible Gateway">Psalm 95</a> (<a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=Hebrews+4%3A12" title="Bible Gateway">Hebrews 4:12</a>). So even the New Covenant community understood the scriptures as <span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;">ὁ λόγος</span>. The OT was viewed as <span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;"><span style="font-family: SBL Hebrew; font-size: x-large;">דְבַר־יְ֠הוָה</span></span> (word of Yahweh), which the LXX translates <span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;">λόγος </span><span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;">κυρίου</span> (<a href="http://www.zhubert.com/bible?book=Ezekiel&amp;chapter=1&amp;verse=3" title="original language at zhubert.com">Ezekiel 1:3 LXX</a>). The problem doesn&#8217;t end here because not only does the NT use <span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;">λόγος</span> and γραφή , it also uses <span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;">ῥῆμα</span><span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;"></span>&#8211;which means &#8220;sayings&#8221; (cf. <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=Romans+10%3A17" title="Bible Gateway">Romans 10:17</a> and Epheisans 6:17). Paul uses all three terms. All three point to the same object.</p>
<p>Quite frankly, I have no problem referring to the Bible as the Bible, the Scriptures, the Word of God. When people hear &#8220;word of God&#8221; I don&#8217;t think that they immediately think of Jesus but of the Bible. Word in English is a very impersonal noun. I think that the difficulty lies not with calling the canonical books that Christians believe to be inspired &#8220;Word&#8221; but rather with understanding what John meant when he used <span style="font-family: Palatino Linotype,Code2000,Gentium; font-size: xx-medium;">ὁ λόγος</span> to describe Jesus in <a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=John+1%3A1-18" title="Bible Gateway">John 1:1-18</a> and putting that into English.</p>
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		<title>By: E. I.</title>
		<link>http://www.masstheology.com/2008/08/18/terminology-question-of-the-day/comment-page-1/#comment-6459</link>
		<dc:creator>E. I.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 17:53:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My first reaction /thought was: why should we have to explain ourselves?  We have been using these terms for hundred of years, no?

That said, the english language is lazy - sort of: In Spanish, we say:

John 1:1: In the beginning was the Verb, and the Verb was with God, and the Verb was God (Verbo).

Then when the people talk about the Bible, they say:  &quot;la Palabra de Dios&quot; - so it is understood we mean - The Word of God as in &quot;This is what God has said&quot;...

So english is lazy here: The Word is, I think, similar to  Love.  In spanish we have multiple ways of saying &quot;love&quot;

Yo Amo my wife  (i love my wife)
Yo quiero a mis hijos  (I love my children)
Me entanta Mexican Food (( love mexican food)

So Word may still be the simplest way to refer to Jesus and the Bible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My first reaction /thought was: why should we have to explain ourselves?  We have been using these terms for hundred of years, no?</p>
<p>That said, the english language is lazy &#8211; sort of: In Spanish, we say:</p>
<p><a href="http://biblegateway.com/bible?version=NLT;ESV;NASB;TNIV&amp;passage=John+1%3A1" title="Bible Gateway">John 1:1</a>: In the beginning was the Verb, and the Verb was with God, and the Verb was God (Verbo).</p>
<p>Then when the people talk about the Bible, they say:  &#8220;la Palabra de Dios&#8221; &#8211; so it is understood we mean &#8211; The Word of God as in &#8220;This is what God has said&#8221;&#8230;</p>
<p>So english is lazy here: The Word is, I think, similar to  Love.  In spanish we have multiple ways of saying &#8220;love&#8221;</p>
<p>Yo Amo my wife  (i love my wife)<br />
Yo quiero a mis hijos  (I love my children)<br />
Me entanta Mexican Food (( love mexican food)</p>
<p>So Word may still be the simplest way to refer to Jesus and the Bible.</p>
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